Author Topic: St Aubyn Burke family from Cork, Ireland  (Read 1077 times)

Offline majm

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Re: St Aubyn Burke family from Cork, Ireland
« Reply #18 on: Thursday 02 May 19 12:32 BST (UK) »
Re:  British Regiments in the Colonies… remember that in the 1840s and 1850s some were sent across the Tasman to engage in the wars there.  Many of the officers and men remained in these colonies after their tours concluded.  For example, 58th Regiment (the Black Cuffs) … to NZ from Sydney NSW in 1845, and they stayed until November 1858 … over 300 elected to settle in NZ…  The regiment’s colours are in the Auckland War Memorial Museum.  (One of my military family lines goes to the 58th and the movement across from Sydney to NZ  :D)

Sue's comments about those obits ... as usual, spot on...  :D     One of my still living very elderly rellies worked for many years as a reporter with the then Cumberland Press in Parramatta NSW.  He still tells the story of a highly respected egg farmer from the then rural area of Blacktown.  The info was provided by one of the egg farmer's adult sons...  It was not ever published ... too many questionable matters ... not one paragraph was recoverable by the sub editor ... red penned and if it had gone to print the headline could have been in trouble too...

JM
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Offline majm

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Re: St Aubyn Burke family from Cork, Ireland
« Reply #19 on: Thursday 02 May 19 13:06 BST (UK) »
Just a sample ... sorry I have no further spare moments at the moment... the surname BURKE is prone to spelling variations, and I have only skimmed across some of my hardcopy resources.  I peeked at the online Grevilles 1872  :) for a start point  :)   many others by that name, but I chose five who likely were farmers (ie possibly 'squatters', waiting for the settlement of any conditional purchases under some land reforms, including waiting for surveyors to survey a selection upon which they were squatting,  :D http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=1&cid=296 )

Grevilles PO directory 1872
BURKE John farmer Ousdale Appin
BURKE John jun. farmer Slack's Ck. Cooma
BURKE John sen. farmer Slack's Ck. Cooma
BURKE John farmer --- Coraki
BURKE John --- Glenwood Gininderra

NSW Electoral Rolls 1870 :

NARRELLAN
Campbelltown Police District
John BURKE, Ousedale, freehold, near Appin

MONARO
Cooma Police District
John BURKE, freehold Nimmitabel
John BURKE, residence Bredbo

HASTINGS
MANNING DISTRICT,
John BURKE, residence, Cundletown

QUEANBEYAN
John BURK (JM notes, no ‘E’ on printed roll) residence, Glenwood. 

These Electoral rolls were compiled by the local police, under direction of a Police magistrate.  NO forms, all verbal information … university spelling qualifications was not a requirement.


JM


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Offline battista

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Re: St Aubyn Burke family from Cork, Ireland
« Reply #20 on: Thursday 02 May 19 23:13 BST (UK) »
Ah ok, yea I figured Lewisham would've been part of Petersham at that time.

Eileen was born about 1858, so it's certainly possible that if they did move to Australia, it was prior to 1870.

Hmm, yes you're right John Burke for 1839 would be quite a bit too early. Too bad that index only goes to 1849.

Once again, thanks for all the info @majm. All of this is very interesting, and certainly helpful in figuring out why the family may have come to Australia.

@sparrett Yes, obit, death certificates etc. are on the less accurate side. The only other pointers (but not definite) that her parents came to Australia is the NSW marriage certificate. Squatter isn't an occupation in Ireland, and I've only ever seen it used in Australia and less commonly in New Zealand. I've looked through PapersPast and NZ BDM Historical and can't find the parents there. Stella Burke comes up with 0 results in the appropriate time frame, plenty of John Burkes, but nothing to indicate any of them are Eileen's parents. I checked to see if there was a record of an Eileen Burke born in NZ 1858 (+/- 10 yrs), I looked through all the Burke/Bourke/Burk/Birk/Birke births and there was no Eileen, Stella or John (or anything similar to those names) present in child, mother, father names. A month ago tried to find an Eileen Burke born in any of the Australian BDM state sites, couldn't find a record that would match her.

"Facts" and their sources

Born in Ireland: Death certificate, obituary, Bernard Murray enlistment paper (her son) (circumstantial: surname is Burke)
She lived in Australia/Parents lived there: Obituary (circumstantial: marriage cert is from NSW)

So the only record I have of Eileen that she gave information herself is the NSW marriage certificate. Unfortunately, all that has is her parents names, where she currently lives and the fathers' occupations. Both those facts don't have any definitive solid sources.

I guess the best bet at the moment is the original catholic marriage record. Hopefully, that names a more specific birthplace.

What information would one typically find in the church records? Is there an example available somewhere?

Thanks for pointing that out @sparrett, it could be that both the birthplace and her parents living in Australia is wrong. I've got nothing else to work with at the moment though, so hopefully, I can get the church record.

Did a search on FreeBMD Eileen Burke 1858 +/- 5, just to see whether there'd be a match. Nothing. A few for Emily and Ella. Not really enough information at the moment to be able to identify where she came from. I was hoping the St Aubyn Burke would make things easier to narrow down, but there doesn't seem to be any other records of someone with that name.
Battista
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Offline wivenhoe

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Re: St Aubyn Burke family from Cork, Ireland
« Reply #21 on: Friday 03 May 19 03:00 BST (UK) »
Your comment about the death record transcription, 1926, that you have posted here -

"..The lady transcribing the original record for the death certificate got a few relationship(s) section wrong, she was new and in training. Why they let her do such an old record, I'm not sure..."

Are you just speaking generally here about the transcription, or did you have reason to return to BDM about death certificate?

Can you be specific about the relationship errors please ......


Eileen Gertrude is 26 years old at marriage, 1884.......born ~ 1858
Eileen Gertrude is 75 years old at death, 1926.....born ~ 1851.
Who is the informant for this death record. Ages recorded at death can be unreliable.

The marriage certificate has St Thomas Church Vestry.  They are not married before the church altar. That would mean that one of the couple is not Catholic, and the priest would be ensure that it was recorded as such.

I think that they have given Christchurch as "usual residence" because that is their intended residence. Eileen has not been in NZ before her marriage.


BDM NZ births
1886/11634   MURRAY   Henry St Aubyn   
parents Eileen Gertrude St Aubyn / Henry
   
1887/11462   MURRAY   Stella Frances Eileen
parents Eileen Gertrude St Aubyn / Henry
   
1891/7257   MURRAY   Bernard Percival   
parents Eileen Gertrude St Aubyn / Henry

Henry would be named for his father, and St Aubyn for mother's family

Stella would be named for maternal grandmother, paternal grandmother and mother

Bernard is named for ........who?......Bernard sounds very Irish Catholic.....possibly a close male relative?.....brother?
Percival might be a family name rather than given name  eg PERCEVAL, PERCIVAL etc.

When given the opportunity to perpetuate family names, Eileen does not include John, or BURKE or CHESTER.  St Aubyn is more important to Eileen than is BURKE.

Obviously, if there were more births you might see more possibilities.


WW1 AIF
Henry St Aubyn Wainwright MURRAY applied for Commission 5 Nov 1915, Brisbane,   #9431, with father Henry as next-of-kin.  Front page has notation " Historian 1/10/41"

Have a look at the WW1 file....looks like WAINWRIGHT to me. Another name to ponder.

Why is Henry in Brisbane in 1915?

BDM QLD   marriage
916   B18566   Henry St.Aubyn   MURRAY  marr.    Ismena Nola   SINNIS

Queensland Figaro 6 May 1916
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/84400241?
...marriage notice......

I think Eileen Gertrude BURKE might have been rather creative about her origins...and her age?

Offline majm

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Re: St Aubyn Burke family from Cork, Ireland
« Reply #22 on: Friday 03 May 19 03:08 BST (UK) »
Re church records for marriages in  NSW ... to 1856 (commencement of civil registration) .... family history purposes - SCANT ... so perhaps name of ship of arrival, perhaps status (spinster/widow but the definition of either was likely very different from 21st century eyes), abode, MAYBE ... age,  and occasionally name of father, or perhaps even name of person giving consent ...

From 1856 ... the legislation required very very detailed info.... the legislation was NOT enforced, there was a huge political problem over decades ... resolved in the mid 1890s... so the clergy collected all the huge info, BUT did not forward it to the Registrar General, instead sent the Reg Gen a summary.... which did NOT include any info in the Reg Gen's columns 5, 7, 9, 10.  (birthplace, age, parents, father's occupation).   
Not until about 1900 did it become important to note if any parent was known to be deceased.

So church records (any denomination) were never recognised as 'public property', they are Church records.  But there is a fine set of digitised church records (C of E) covering from mid 1820s until well into the 20th century, available via live links within RChat's NSW Resources Board.  Whoever sent those links through to our then Global Moderator has provided the best NSW resource ever. 

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia-resources-offers/
then to
 https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0
  then to reply #2 and scroll through to the
  Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/ 1820 – 1899 Family Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605008173551/ 1826 – 1837 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157604433014652/ 1837 – 1838 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605132739200/ 1839 – 1861 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605674610949/ 1856 – 1868 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605785759029/ 1869 – 1885 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605802132868/ 1885 – 1897 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606197590347/ 1899 – 1913 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605928662968/ 1913 – 1914 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606308436455/ 1914 – 1916 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606323070651/ 1916 – 1918 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606450662513/ 1918 – 1929 Marriage Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606952230042/ 1929 – 1936 Marriages Register

JM
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Offline majm

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Re: St Aubyn Burke family from Cork, Ireland
« Reply #23 on: Friday 03 May 19 03:16 BST (UK) »
Yes, one of the two were not RC, that's why the marriage was Rectory/Vestry.  One was RC.  Have you located Henry's NZ birth/baptism...   

Yes, the age of the bride should be on the Church record in that era.  The reconciliation process undertaken by NSW BDM Reg Gen in the 1910-1915 era sometimes needed to consult FIVE registers to get all the details.  So some clergy in some denominations were diligent (overly so perhaps) and some were quite remiss in their administrative tasks....  :D But, the ages of the parties should be on the church record, and it should be first hand, so as family historians you could start to consider if Eileen's info on say the NZ birth certs for her children would be reliable/consistent etc....

Re the NZ transcription .... and your comments about the transcriber .... have you obtained the  actual NZ BDM printout .... these are usually very detailed (better than the d.c. itself) and there's an entire board here at RChat dedicated to deciphering handwriting....   

JM
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Offline battista

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Re: St Aubyn Burke family from Cork, Ireland
« Reply #24 on: Friday 03 May 19 03:23 BST (UK) »
Your comment about the death record transcription, 1926, that you have posted here -

"..The lady transcribing the original record for the death certificate got a few relationship(s) section wrong, she was new and in training. Why they let her do such an old record, I'm not sure..."

Are you just speaking generally here about the transcription, or did you have reason to return to BDM about death certificate?

Can you be specific about the relationship errors please ......


Eileen Gertrude is 26 years old at marriage, 1884.......born ~ 1858
Eileen Gertrude is 75 years old at death, 1926.....born ~ 1851.
Who is the informant for this death record. Ages recorded at death can be unreliable.

When I ordered the Death Certificate in person, the lady said she had to transcribe it from the original scanned record, onto a new death certificate. She took about 1 hour and 20 minutes to do it, they were showing her how for the first 10, then the supervisor had to leave. She didn't seem like she knew what she was doing. When she finally printed it, she asked me to check the details because she had a hard time reading the record. I was already late (I didn't think it would take so long), so I quickly scanned the names, and left. After further inspection at home, I did notice she was 75 years old at death (approx. 1851 birth), 39 at marriage vs 26. The last detail on the marriage cert was Age (if living), firstly, her husband was dead, secondly, I'm not sure if that's supposed to mean age at marriage for husband or age of husband if living. Either way, it's wrong. I don't know whether the errors are from the transcription or the informant, maybe even a mix of both.

I don't see an informant on the death certificate? I know for all the English certificates I have, the informant is named.

I requested the BDM printout too, I thought she did print it out as she gave the certificate to me in an envelope. Since I was in a rush, I left without checking. I checked the receipt and she didn't charge me for it, so I didn't further pursue that.

I have a printout of another ancestors NZ bdm death record, I didn't really see much information on there that wouldn't be present on a death certificate?
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Offline majm

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Re: St Aubyn Burke family from Cork, Ireland
« Reply #25 on: Friday 03 May 19 03:30 BST (UK) »
Wikipedia on British regiments in NSW to 1870
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_Army_regiments_that_served_in_Australia_between_1810_and_1870

Digger history
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-conflicts-periods/other/british_army-in-aust.htm

Public Records Victoria
https://guides.slv.vic.gov.au/colonialforces/imperialforces

National library of Australia
https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/38309821?q&versionId=50747325
This book may well be available in NZ or as an e-book
The British Army in Australia 1788-1870: index to personnel by James Hugh DONOHOE


RED POST  - if you check the various posts on RChat's NZ board, you will notice a consistent comment to get the PRINTOUT ... likely it depends on the era, but I have a several NSW born  ancestors who died in NZ ... the printout works best for me from late 1800s until at least mid 1980s... 

JM
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Offline majm

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Re: St Aubyn Burke family from Cork, Ireland
« Reply #26 on: Friday 03 May 19 03:35 BST (UK) »
"Age and date of birth" on the d.c. is her then age, -  her age at death.   :D

The print out is likely to be an image of the actual document that the cert was transcribed from, so the transcription ONLY covers the headings needed for the actual d.c. and does NOT cover any margin or endorsement or 'asides' etc that may have been recorded (struck through or otherwise) . 

JM

The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 

Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.

Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   

All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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