Author Topic: Was this an unusual relationship?  (Read 823 times)

Online LizzieL

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Was this an unusual relationship?
« on: Friday 03 May 19 17:00 BST (UK) »
George Derham and his wife Sarah Footner had 10 children in Christchurch. The second was a daughter, Elizabeth born in 1828. The ninth was a son Peter born in 1845.
Elizabeth married William Butt in 1849 in Southampton district and had 7 children, most born in Brockenhurst. I have found their second child Elizabeth Butt (b 1854) on 1861, 1871 and 1881 censuses as a single woman. Then in 1901 I have her as the wife of Peter Derham with 4 children the first being born about 1888. All children are registered as Derhams with mother's maiden name Butt. I'm sure it's the same Elizabeth because in the household is Elizabeth's sister Ada Ellen Butt b 1865.
Peter would be Elizabeth's uncle and therefore it would be a prohibited marriage, but they could have gone away somewhere where they weren't known and married without anyone knowing the relationship.
In 1911 Elizabeth is a widow and says she has had 7 children, of which 3 have died. The column for number of years married is blank, implying that they did not actually marry.
I am working on tracking down the three dead children and trying to find what happened to the other children. Their son also Peter was in St Margaret's hospital Bromley in 1911. Not sure what type of hospital it was.
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Scott, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott
Essex/Herts: Livermore, Holgate, Law, Day, Myson, Boyton
Norfolk/Suffolk: Stone, Alexander, Tipple, Ingate

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Offline KGarrad

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Re: Was this an unusual relationship?
« Reply #1 on: Friday 03 May 19 17:15 BST (UK) »
The column stated asks How many complete years the CURRENT marriage has lasted ;D
If she is a widow, the correct answer is zero.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

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Offline keyboard86

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Re: Was this an unusual relationship?
« Reply #2 on: Friday 03 May 19 17:28 BST (UK) »
Hi Peter Derham was in The Lady Margaret Hospital mainly for those with disorders of the digestive system, they were not treated with drugs, but fed a Fruitarian/Vegetarian diet.
Fascinating hospital, the only one of its type in England.
Keyboard86
Pelly/Pelley/Kingsbury/Challis/Nalder/Rochester/Raydenbow

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Online LizzieL

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Re: Was this an unusual relationship?
« Reply #3 on: Friday 03 May 19 17:37 BST (UK) »
The column stated asks How many complete years the CURRENT marriage has lasted ;D
If she is a widow, the correct answer is zero.
But the next columns are for numbers of children born alive to present marriage. As a widow she should have left those blank too.
I think she wanted to record the children but couldn't lie about a non existent marriage.
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Scott, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott
Essex/Herts: Livermore, Holgate, Law, Day, Myson, Boyton
Norfolk/Suffolk: Stone, Alexander, Tipple, Ingate

Online LizzieL

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Re: Was this an unusual relationship?
« Reply #4 on: Friday 03 May 19 17:41 BST (UK) »
Hi Peter Derham was in The Lady Margaret Hospital mainly for those with disorders of the digestive system, they were not treated with drugs, but fed a Fruitarian/Vegetarian diet.
Fascinating hospital, the only one of its type in England.
Keyboard86
Thank you for that information. Some of the residents were classed as inmates and some as patients in 1911 so I wondered if it was a mental institution, but seems not. It sounds like you had to have a special case or been able to pay to get in there. Must look in to this further
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Scott, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott
Essex/Herts: Livermore, Holgate, Law, Day, Myson, Boyton
Norfolk/Suffolk: Stone, Alexander, Tipple, Ingate

Offline keyboard86

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Re: Was this an unusual relationship?
« Reply #5 on: Friday 03 May 19 17:45 BST (UK) »
Hi again, a Peter Derham died December qtr 1955 Winchester aged 67
Keyboard86
Pelly/Pelley/Kingsbury/Challis/Nalder/Rochester/Raydenbow

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Offline Gan Yam

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Re: Was this an unusual relationship?
« Reply #6 on: Friday 03 May 19 20:35 BST (UK) »
Then in 1901 I have her as the wife of Peter Derham with 4 children the first being born about 1888. All children are registered as Derhams with mother's maiden name Butt. I'm sure it's the same Elizabeth because in the household is Elizabeth's sister Ada Ellen Butt b
In 1911 Elizabeth is a widow and says she has had 7 children, of which 3 have died.

There are 7 Derham children with mmn Butt:
Minnie
Peter
Edgar
Edmund
Ernest
Cecil
Herbert

Interesting that he described Ada as his sister in law on 1901 census, and not his niece! If Ada was staying with them, you would think that the family were accepting of the situation or at least some of them!

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Offline IgorStrav

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Re: Was this an unusual relationship?
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 04 May 19 15:38 BST (UK) »
Just another thought - you are confident that the Elizabeth is the daughter of your Elizabeth (Derham) Butt.
However, are you also confident that the Peter Derham is Elizabeth (Derham) Butt's brother?

Because families did repeat first names, even if relatively close family members were also using them.
Have you ruled out that the Peter Derham was not the child of another branch of the family (eg son of one of George Derham's siblings?)
Pay, Kent. 
Barham, Kent. 
Cork(e), Kent. 
Cooley, Kent.
Barwell, Rutland/Northants/Greenwich.
Cotterill, Derbys.
Van Steenhoven/Steenhoven/Hoven, Belgium/East London.
Burton, East London.
Barlow, East London
Wayling, East London
Wade, Greenwich/Brightlingsea, Essex.
Thorpe, Brightlingsea, Essex

Offline keyboard86

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Re: Was this an unusual relationship?
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 04 May 19 16:16 BST (UK) »
Hi believe Cecil G and Peter have been transcribed as DESHAM in 1939 at same address as 1911, interesting occupations ( as transcribed ) Ada E Butt is with them.
Keyboard86

Well it was not the deaths of Edmund Percy 1894 ( In London occ Clerk ) or Ernest Sydney b 1890 occ Officers Steward in the Royal Navy in 1911
Edgar William b 1887 died 1887 and Herbert b 1895 in1897 aged 1
Pelly/Pelley/Kingsbury/Challis/Nalder/Rochester/Raydenbow

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