Author Topic: Confused by denomination  (Read 686 times)

Online pharmaT

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Re: Confused by denomination
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday 08 May 19 09:45 BST (UK) »
Also there was a strong feeling that  C of E Baptisms were “ stronger”,also marriages.
The Methodist and Baptist movements were relatively new and the C of E underwent radical changes, so an unsettled time.
But I think the theory that the parents had no strong leanings is likely.
The babies were “ done” where convenient and  the minister who expected the family to attend Church was not being awkward,he was doing his job and to have your child taken into the Family of the Church when you are not members does seem more like superstition than religion.
The stupid belief that unbaptised babies were not allowed into heaven was very strong and given the infant mortality rate of those times parents played safe.
There was obviously a lot of superstition and belief all mixed up ,still is!

There are Great big Christening do’s,hundreds in our church.
Promises made but never kept.Sniggering at the words etc so why bother?
Church schools are often very good, that is why,children must have been baptised to go to such schools nowadays.

But at least they had their babies baptised so  they had done their best even if not regular attenders .
How parents coped with the many babies lost I can’t imagine.
My Grandmother lost three ,all just weeks and months old.
Viktoria.

One of my 4x grt uncles was baptised the day he was born, the minister commented on it.  The view persisted well into the last centuary.  Not long after my parents married they had a frantic knock on their door from a neghbour who had sen my Dad in his ambulance uniform.  Their baby, who had been born just that Friday night had died in her sleep :(.  It had supposed to be herChristening.  My mum calle the priest at the neighbuor's church as they wee very religious and my mum felt they needed comfort. The Priest refused to come out bacause the baby hadn't been baptised and said they should have done it quicker.  I wasn't even born yet but have been angry ever since I was told that the parents were denied comfort.

My children were both baptised.  Not to get into good school but because I actually believed.  Some laughed at the second but that was because my daughter looked like she was blowing raspberries a the priest.  I don't go to church regularly though because; 1. I work shifts which includes weekends 2. As I am no longer with my husband it has been made clear I am not welcome unless I take him back. I still teach my girls about the bible though.

Campbell, Dunn, Dickson, Fell, Forest, Norie, Pratt, Somerville, Thompson, Tyler among others

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Offline oldohiohome

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Re: Confused by denomination
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday 08 May 19 11:47 BST (UK) »
I researched this question once. The setting was relatively rural Pennsylvania in the 1810's and 1820's. The family was said to be one of the "pillars" of the early Methodist community in the area, but 4 of the children were baptized as Lutheran. There was no Methodist church building in the area until 1833.

I found this information. If it is not correct, please let me know. The first quote would seem to apply to England as well:

The founder of Methodism, John Wesley's, "plan was to revive the Church of England from within, not to form a new church. All his followers were expected to continue to attend their Anglican parish church for public worship and communion, and for baptism, marriage, and burial."

Encyclopedia Americana, "Methodism", (Danbury, Connecticut: Grolier, 1999).

...

In America, a difference of opinion arose among early Methodists in connection with administering the sacraments for themselves. Northern Methodists believed that they did not have that authority, while Southern Methodists did.

Frank Baker, From Wesley to Asbury: Studies in Early American Methodism (Durham, N.C.: Duke University Press, 1976), 101-103.
Cambridgeshire: Billups, Cropley; Derbyshire: Jenkinson, Gratton; Co Down: O'Rourke, Rodgers, Cunningham

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Offline Viktoria

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Re: Confused by denomination
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday 08 May 19 14:26 BST (UK) »
There is s fine line between belief in a religion and superstition.
Many superstitious beliefs surround childbirth and Baptism.
One such is that women must be “Churched” as soon as possible.
My M in L would not let me into her house,I am laughing now as I remember,
We called with the baby on our way back from buying clothes for a baby boy.
You just bought a basic layette in those far  off  days 1957.
I had walked a bit too far ,but we would not have passed her door anyway.
She brought me a chair  outside to sit on, then when a shower started an umbrella!I then realised why I was not allowed in the house.
She thought she was being a good Christian.
She was very good in many ways ,but that was ridiculous.
I remember a young woman neighbour of many years ago.
She was expecting a baby but also in the last stages of liver cancer.
We young Mums were so,upset as she also had  three other young children.
Treatment well over 50 years ago was nothing like today and had she accepted what there was the baby would have been endangered.
A dead unbaptised baby,born or still unborn would go into Limbo.
We could not understand why it could not be baptised ,was there no format  for such eventualities.?
O.K the actual,putting of water on the baby’s head could not be done before birth,but anyone who thinks they believe in God would surely feel “he “would not turn an innocent baby away.
It incensed us all ,church goers and those who did not ,alike.
The young woman died just after the baby was born ,early,alive.
The Priest came with the special items for such an eventuality.
I can remember it now,neighbours almost hissed as he entered the house ,
it all seemed so cruel and far from the loving aspect of  Christianity.
We had known the Mum from schooldays,she had changed her religion to marry the man she loved, and it let her down in the belief that accepting treatment  might kill her unborn baby  who then would be in Limbo,for ever.
And she would be to blame.
I truly think,she was too ill for the treatment to have any effect,but what a moral dilemma.
I am sure things have moved on and away from such superstitions in the guise of religion.
Viktoria.

Remember this was over 50 years ago .










Offline Mart 'n' Al

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Re: Confused by denomination
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday 08 May 19 20:17 BST (UK) »
Viktoria, I remember joking about it a few weeks ago on another thread, but you always write such wisdom. Somebody really should compile it all into a book. You always have such a balanced way of looking at things.

My niece is taught at school to present an argument on a particular subject, and then the following week she has to prepare an argument opposing her original presentation. She learns to see both sides of things, as you have so clearly done. You should have been a diplomat. Perhaps you were?

Martin
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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Confused by denomination
« Reply #22 on: Wednesday 08 May 19 22:15 BST (UK) »
The founder of Methodism, John Wesley's, "plan was to revive the Church of England from within, not to form a new church. All his followers were expected to continue to attend their Anglican parish church for public worship and communion, and for baptism, marriage, and burial."
Encyclopedia Americana, "Methodism", (Danbury, Connecticut: Grolier, 1999).

John Wesley remained a member of the Church of England until his death.
The break with the Anglican Church came after the deaths of Charles and John Wesley. 'Plan of Pacification ' 1795.
https://www.methodist.org.uk/about-us/the-methodist-church/history

20 years later, Wesleyan Methodists in Ireland separated from Church of Ireland. Primitive Methodists remained with C. of I. for several more decades. See Irish Toolkit website for a brief history of Methodism in Ireland.

Offline oldohiohome

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Re: Confused by denomination
« Reply #23 on: Wednesday 08 May 19 22:50 BST (UK) »
@maidenstone
Thank you.
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Offline Andrew Tarr

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Re: Confused by denomination
« Reply #24 on: Wednesday 08 May 19 23:09 BST (UK) »
I am sure things have moved on and away from such superstitions in the guise of religion.
Remember this was over 50 years ago .
 
Things have moved on, but in parts of the world bigotry seems to be at least as entrenched as it was in 1957.  Although I went to a school with a chapel and was confirmed in the C of E, my parents were not especially religious and I have gradually become an atheist.  Religion has been both a blessing and a curse in equal measure - and still is.  The best thing to have come out of it is centuries of exquisite music.
Tarr, Tydeman, Liversidge, Bartlett, Young

Offline Viktoria

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Re: Confused by denomination
« Reply #25 on: Wednesday 08 May 19 23:18 BST (UK) »
That is interesting Maiden Stone,we tend to think Methodism was a new religion.
The Oxford Movement seemed to many to be a retrograde step,bringing back many Catholic practises in to the Anglican Church which went at the  Reformation.
John Newman was beatified by  the Catholic  Church eventually.
 
Isn’t it  sad that religion should cause such bitterness and strife.

Well Mart,I have some strong views but I have to allow that others have too
Some things I can’t budge from though.
I have put my foot in it quite a few times though!


Children’s  rights and how things can deny them those rights.
Only one childhood and it ought to be happy and secure.
I could never budge from that.
I think falling standards are causing a lot of unhappiness in all sorts of ways.
So what do we do? Fight or go with the flow.?
Well if we don’t fight falling standards nothing will improve and it is not an exaggeration to say we are seeing the start of the end of both our civilisation and the end of our planet.

I do try to see other’s points of view,but I can’t alter my standards to accommodate views I know will not be right, fair or honest.
Put that down to my Methodist upbringing, or to be more exact those people who were Methodists who brought me up.

Cheerio.
Wonder if the new baby will sleep much ?
Harry will have an excuse to nurse him
Viktoria.