Author Topic: Can't decipher the surname...  (Read 7934 times)

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Can't decipher the surname...
« Reply #54 on: Saturday 18 May 19 11:02 BST (UK) »
Hello

Two Prerogative Court of Canterbury (PCC) Wills, for Leonard Fosbrooke of Shardlow

Will of Leonard Fosbrooke of Shardlow Hall , Derbyshire.
02 September 1830
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D270604

A very quick read of the first few pages only of the 1830, Fosbrooke mentions upon his death that they could sell one of his Estates (Shardlow named, with others) which might sell.

Estates were usually broken up into Lots and offered for Sale at Auctions (some advertised briefly in newspapers) and therefore not unusual for some Lots to remain unsold and still in the family ownership later.

A small snippet from the 1830 Will ...

And whereas by the Settlement made previous to my Marriage with my said dear wife Mary Elizabeth Fosbrooke a rent charge of five hundred pounds is secured to her my said wife in case she shall survive me and her assigns for life ...

So there was a Marriage Settlement once, before the 1830 Fosbrooke Will and their Marriage.

Also mentioned so far in the Will, Lands at Ravenstone and Snibston Leicestershire.

She was nee Mary Elizabeth Story and according to the Plantagenet Roll of the Blood Royal, her Father was the Rev. Philip Story of Lockington Hall.


You are probably already looking at the Records of the Fosbrooke family of Shardlow D 447 at Derbyshire R.O. (other related family items in other collections)
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F16483
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/N13628693

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Will of Leonard Fosbrooke of Shardlow, Derbyshire
20 July 1763
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D487021

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These references in Burke's 19th Century books are useful for their family history and to find possible locations of other possible surviving document sources etc., should those at Derby R.O., be incomplete.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YdIKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA434&lpg=PA434&dq=Description:+Will+of+Leonard+Fosbrooke+of+Shardlow&source=bl&ots=qFyrj-9b1L&sig=ACfU3U1OWj0p2aIgfedmilGrNdVVXq0SkA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiYr5PTwqTiAhWDVBUIHenBBQ4Q6AEwCHoECAkQAQ

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General Comments

If there was a 'Tail' on an English Estate, where it passes to a Son and Heir or a Daughter Heiress, then there may be an Estate Act, or Estates Act, (with a family name in the Act title), to break the 'Tail'. Some are held locally or in the Parliamentary Archives.

Oh yes, it is very exciting stuff, for the enquiring mind wanting a challenge.

Knowing their Family History too is useful, because when these great and medium sized Landowners died or moved house some Manuscripts were sometimes taken by them or family to one of their other Estates / Seats, or Sold off as Manuscripts with their great Libraries, or left with their Solicitors, or even left with the new owner of their former Seat or House, who have kept items in their house or family and now deposited them in Record Offices or University Special Collections, where they subsequently lived or died.

Wills online are only a small part of the Wills actually held.

Regarding a Manor of interest to me, they conducted an Enquiry / Inquiry Post Mortem between 1606 to 1608 into her Lands and her Estate Lands are listed by Field name too, some of which can be found in earlier Courts Baron Surveys, Surveys and Rentals of the Estate in the Medieval period.

It is really an offence to destroy old House Deeds, which go back into the Manor period, as they will very likely be Manorial documents.


Hopefully the Manor and Estate documents will be more useful.

A local lady told me their Solicitor binned their 400 year old Map and documents in front of them, because the property was now Registered, now she only has 200 year old Deeds, which have no original Map, only a modern Plan in a Sales Brochure marking the land, when her family offered the site for sale.

UK Land Registry Office, current documents and Maps at First Registration held for my area are usually only 20th Century at best, despite the Lands being mentioned in the time of Henry II and a rich source of documents going back 600 years and more.

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Generally. A Homebuyer should always read these Registered Titles too (not just the online summary) as the Title ought to summarise Covenants and Responsibilities at first Registration and have a Plan too.

New or recent Housing Estates are hiding so much in these wordy Conveyance documents, especially future costs that people simply sign to be responsible to pay for without even reading it (e.g. including a share of the future cost of part of the new housing estate road which the council never adopted part of, shared street lighting, or another was maintenance and repairs of a massive retaining wall which also gave rights for the Council to seize the 'Freehold' property if they couldn't pay). Conveyances and Plans should be read and checked at your own pace, which can be fully enquired about or an opinion sought first, before proceeding.

Mark

Offline overlandermatt

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Re: Can't decipher the surname...
« Reply #55 on: Monday 20 May 19 22:10 BST (UK) »
Thank you all but particularly Mark and BBart for your efforts in helping me research my home's history. At present, we are just getting started on what will be a mammoth building project renovating the house and there aren't enough hours in the day to get fully immersed in the historical research. I really want to get the family moved in for Christmas!!

I certainly look forward to doing more research when time permits.

A couple of interesting angles here...

The house seems to have been used as a doctor's surgery for some years. After Dr Hogg, there was Dr Gay and Glynn also mentioned a Dr Legg whose waiting room was at the back of the house where we have a dining room.

Earlier posts suggested the house might have been used as the rectory based on census information. My contact at the local heritage centre suggested that Shardlow Manor had previously been the rectory. That is a larger house on London Road and a bit closer to the church that was built around 1840.

Thanks once again!

Matt

Offline overlandermatt

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Re: Can't decipher the surname...
« Reply #56 on: Thursday 11 January 24 11:38 GMT (UK) »
It's been a few years since I looked at the history of our ca. 1750 home in any detail. The help I receive here was so helpful. I started the thread looking for a name listed in the 1840s tithe survey book from the country records office in Derbyshire which looked like it might be Charles Thorell.

Subsequent help and investigation unearthed a Charles Thorold aged 25 listed in the 1851 census but it was unclear who lived here in 1841 and some uncertainty about 1861 and 1871. Charles Thorold lives elsewhere in 1841.

I've looked back at the tithes survey book and map in hope of further clues - the accompanying book states that the survey was carried out in 1849 which is much later in the decade than I had first considered and therefore it is more likely that Charles Thorell in the book is Charles Thorold in the census 2 years later.

I had originally thought that there had been a mistake made in the information collected as the house normally had more than 1 occupant. Elsewhere in the tithe book there are multiple residents listed but not in this case. The owner of the land/property is listed as James Sutton which matches expectations and the pasture land has an appropriate value compared with other properties on the map. The name of The Old Homestead also matches previous older maps.




Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Can't decipher the surname...
« Reply #57 on: Tuesday 16 January 24 21:58 GMT (UK) »
1851
A possible marriage for Charles Thorold? Parish of St George, Hanover Square, Westminster, Maria, born Spain per Census, in 1852, (nee Maria Antonia Paz, her father Nicholas Paz, Capt in the Army).

At the marriage he gave his Father as Benjamin Hart Thorold, Gent'm.

Property "Villa" Shardlow, in 1841

Looking at the names of those adjacent in the London Road, to Charles Thorold "Villa" Shardlow in the 1851 Census, it seems in the 1841 Census the Enumerator had listed them and the "Villa" under Derby Road.

1841 Census, Derby Road, Shardlow
Catharine Cook, 45, Char Woman, Y.
Edmund Cook, 13, Y.
& 2 others in the household.
 --
Sarah Henshall, 25, Y.
& Children.
[Benjamin Newham, 49, Gardener and household in 1851]
 --
Richard Nicklinson, 60, N.
Sarah Nicklinson, 50, N.
Catharine Clarke, 7, Y.
William Hughson, 20  Wheelwright, Y.
 --
Villa
Mary Sutton, 65, Ind. N.
George Henshall, 25, M.S., N.
Harriet Gibbons, 20, F.S., N.

Probably a relative of the owner you mentioned, of Independent means, with two Servants.
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There is a newspaper listing November 1846 in the Deaths
On Sunday, at Shardlow union house, Mrs. Mary Sutton, aged 78.

Added: two Leicester newspapers say Mary Sutton dying Union House, Shardlow, was of Castle Donington.

A bit too old (78) even allowing for the rounding down of adults to the nearest 5 years of the 1841 Census (e.g. 69 rounded down to the 65) and adding 5 years on to 69 (1841 to 1846).

Mark


Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Can't decipher the surname...
« Reply #58 on: Wednesday 17 January 24 07:13 GMT (UK) »
1842 Pigot & Co., Directory.
Gentry
Mrs Mary Sutton, Shardlow.
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Interesting comments from Glynno at Reply #24 on the other thread about the original Listing and the G.P., being Dr Bell ...

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=806900.msg6735051#msg6735051





Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Can't decipher the surname...
« Reply #59 on: Wednesday 17 January 24 10:52 GMT (UK) »
That's very interesting reading. It suggests the house has been called The Villa from the time of the 1851 census and Charles Thorold to 1914 and John Hogg.
 ...

James Sutton's will (1831) unfortunately does not seem to specify a recognisable name or description for the house which is unfortunate. We do know from other sources that the land is referred to as The Old Homestead and indeed the first map of Shardlow prepared for Leonard Fosbrooke in the 1760s seems to show that name...

On the subject of wills, is there anything mentioned in James Sutton Jr's will? He left his estate to Edward Sutton and it is his name as the owner in the 1910 Land Valuation Survey. My contact at the heritage centre suggested the estate was not sold off until the 1960s.

I don't know who was there at the house after John Hogg. Sylvester Calvert, a Jeweller, is there at the time of the 1939 Register. I have a copy of his photo from the heritage centre in the village too.

A newspaper advert says the Shardlow Hall Estate was being Let by A. Sutton, Bridekirk, ...

Added:
23 September 1899 Farm, Shardlow Hall Estate, Derbyshire ... to be Let
A. Sutton, Bridekirk, Cockermouth.

Looks like A. Sutton of Bridekirk was Son of James ...
1881 Marriage at Marylebone,
Alfred Sutton, 30, Bach., Clerk, Bridekirk Vicarage, Cumberland, Father: James Sutton, Esquire.
married
Bertha Frances Entwisle Walker, 25, ...
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Did you get the Will of James Sutton, Proved 21st February 1868?

They were £1.50 per Will from the Probate Registry at gov.uk
 ----------
A newspaper reference to an Edward Sutton who who once resided at Shardlow Hall, dying Lincolnshire.

Mark

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Can't decipher the surname...
« Reply #60 on: Wednesday 17 January 24 20:58 GMT (UK) »
Have you seen the 1766 Map in the Derbyshire Record Office to check your house location, or for any name, building name or field name at that location, etc?

If Fosbrooke didn't own the relevant piece of land, some Plans have the owner's name on the blank area.

D1326/A/P/1
Shardlow enclosure award, 1757

D1326/A/P/2. Map of the parish of Shardlow and Great Wilne the estate of Leonard Fosbrooke, by John Whyman. 1766. Parish of Shardlow St James. 1766
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In 1849 Tithe Apportionment what were the field names?
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Probate Calendar, snippets
1939 Probate of Alfred Sutton of Bridekirk, Cockermouth.
Possibly the 1926 Probate of Edward Sutton (refers to reverend Alfred Sutton, Clerk).

They would be too late, if the Sutton family had already sold (although a seller has been known to occasionally provide a Mortgage to the buyer, which may be mentioned in the late seller's Will).

Mark

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Re: Can't decipher the surname...
« Reply #61 on: Thursday 18 January 24 08:00 GMT (UK) »
Regarding the Enclosure of Shardlow there is a claim online that small parts of Shardlow were acquired by Holden of nearby Aston on Trent, at Enclosure.

https://www.astonontrenthistory.org.uk/holden-estate-village/
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Mrs Mary Sutton of Shardlow Purchased an Advowson
In a history of Shardlow and Wilne, page 160, it says
Edward A. Holden, Esq., is the patron of the perpetual curacy, who in 1839 sold the Advowson to Mrs Mary Sutton of Shardlow.

https://books.google.com/books/about/History_gazetteer_and_directory_of_Derby.html?id=GvoGAAAAQAAJ#v=onepage&q=%22Mary%20Sutton%20of%20Shardlow%22&f=false
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Did Mary Sutton of Shardlow leave a Will
Did Mrs Mary Sutton of Shardlow leave a Will or Administration and is her Probate Registered in the Will Calendars, probably at Derby County Record Office?

1841 Shardlow Census
Villa.
Mary Sutton, 65, Independant, N. (Not born same County). Occupying Villa with two Servants.

1842 Also Mrs Mary Sutton listed as Gentry in Pigot's Directory.

Mark

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Re: Can't decipher the surname...
« Reply #62 on: Thursday 18 January 24 10:12 GMT (UK) »
Thank you Mark!

You have unearthed quite a few leads... To be honest, I have only just picked up on the house history having been working for almost 5 years full time on the building work of the house. There's a long way to go still but getting there.

The 1841 census looks like we now have all census entries. I was unaware that a Sutton had lived in the house. That's great thank you.

I should probably look to piece together the Sutton family tree to get a better idea of some of the players involved. The names I am familiar with are Edward Sutton, eldest son of James and Henry Sutton the second son whose daughter married a Liberal MP Julius Bertram.

The Villa/Dower House along with one of two cottages adjacent to the house, was purchased by Lavinia Calvert in the 1930s. The cottage was later gifted to her daughter Sylvia and husband in 1944. Sylvia then acquired the other cottage from the Sutton estate around 1960 and at some stage demolished them. Glynno pointed out in a previous message that Lavinia and Sylvia had fallen out and would not sell The Dower House to her. The previous owner of The Dower House then purchased the land where the cottages had been in the 1990s but did not register the titles for 20 years. Although I don't have the deeds from the sale of the Dower House from Lavinia Calvert onwards, they were included in the pack that came with the land sale for the cottages. That worked out well.
 
I probably need to look at the deeds in more detail - I'm not really sure what I am looking for.

In terms of what I have found at the Derbyshire records office, there was a conveyancing document from 1812 between Leonard Fosbrooke and James Sutton (presumably the senior one). Unfortunately I didn't have much time to investigate and it was some time ago... I didn't find specific mention of the Villa/Dower House. I wonder if this is the transfer of the estate... Whoever did the Wikipedia entry for Shardlow Hall suggested it was 1826. This might have been an earlier land transfer I suppose - Fosbrooke allegedly was in financial trouble.

I did look for all the relevant maps of Shardlow - there was an early one from 1766/67 that was not at all clear. I'll check this again.

I did have a quick look at the copy of his will at the records office. It was the first time I had seen an old will and I probably missed something important. I didn't see any reference to the house but owning so many properties, I might have missed it. I should probably order his will as you suggest. £1.50 seems very reasonable!
   
When I look at the physical evidence around the house, different brick types and other architectural details, I see phases of development over time that I suspect can be attributed to different owners. The house was dated at 1750 by previous owners but there's little that I have found to support this. The windows were flush with the brickwork rather than set back as other newer parts of the house are. I think was an early building regulation from the 1760s. I've always considered there was a Georgian structure that was then altered significantly in early Victorian times. A later Victorian addition of a second storey on top of an older structure was added later with a much different brick. I found artefacts down the back of a fireplace from 1910 but I don't have much to go on!

That's about it for now. Thanks again for your very helpful input!