Author Topic: Signature of same person?  (Read 179 times)

Offline MrDudley

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Signature of same person?
« on: Sunday 12 May 19 21:42 BST (UK) »
I have 3 signatures and whilst I'm fairly certain they are for the same person, I'd like 2nd opinions as I'm working on piecing someone together just using locations of children's baptisms, wills and other tidbits.

The first 2 signatures are for Henry Dudley, Gent of Swepstone and London aged in his late 40s during 1657/1660 from court cases in London and Leicestershire.
The last signature is for Henry Dudley, Gent of Odstone, Leicestershire aged about 70 from his will in 1686.

Would people say these are signatures of the same person?
Richard Dudley of Cosby, Leicestershire. Gentleman
Landowner
1681-1748
Richard Dudley of Odstone and Cosby, Leicestershire. Gentleman.
Landowner
1652-1710
Henry Dudley of Odstone, Leicestershire. Esquire.
Lieutenant in Henry Hastings Regiment during Civil war.
Landowner
1617-1688
Thomas Dudley of Swepstone, Leic and London. Gentleman.
Vintner of London.
Worshipful Company of Vintners
1589-1660
Son of Richard Dudley of Swepstone, Leic and Ann Farmer.

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Offline Viktoria

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Re: Signature of same person?
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 12 May 19 21:46 BST (UK) »
Yes I think so, the first two certainly and the third has more or less the same H as the first two, a little less ornate but the basic  strokes are there.
Viktoria.

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Offline goldie61

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Re: Signature of same person?
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 12 May 19 22:14 BST (UK) »
That was my first thought too.
The first 2 certainly, and the third one has basically the same formation, although it's a bit 'neater', and the 'e's are just ever so slightly different. But if there's 30 years between them, they're not going to look identical. I very much doubt my signature is the same now as it was 30 years ago!
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline MrDudley

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Re: Signature of same person?
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 12 May 19 22:47 BST (UK) »
Thank you for your replies.
I did note that the H is the same and the D seems to keep the same form as well. The use of Hen:Dudley rather than writing 'Henry Dudley' I thought as another reason it could be the same person. The 1686 he is older and perhaps weaker so may be why the signature is neat, perhaps writing slowly?


I've come across 2 more signatures now in 1681 for a Hen:Dudley as a witness on a will and inventory for a Lawrence Farmer. coincidentally, this Lawrence or his father was present in the same court case in 1660 with Henry Dudley of Swepstone and his father Thomas of london. Given that Henrys grandmother was an Ann Farmer, I think Henry of Swepstone is the same as Henry of Odstone. The same signatures on all court records and wills are very similar and the fact people seem to link together now and Henry is the only Henry Dudley in Leicestershire.
Richard Dudley of Cosby, Leicestershire. Gentleman
Landowner
1681-1748
Richard Dudley of Odstone and Cosby, Leicestershire. Gentleman.
Landowner
1652-1710
Henry Dudley of Odstone, Leicestershire. Esquire.
Lieutenant in Henry Hastings Regiment during Civil war.
Landowner
1617-1688
Thomas Dudley of Swepstone, Leic and London. Gentleman.
Vintner of London.
Worshipful Company of Vintners
1589-1660
Son of Richard Dudley of Swepstone, Leic and Ann Farmer.

Online Treetotal

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Re: Signature of same person?
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 12 May 19 23:13 BST (UK) »
I don't think there is any doubt that they are written by the same hand.
Carol
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Online Ruskie

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Re: Signature of same person?
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 12 May 19 23:45 BST (UK) »
The signatures do look the same, though I think it odd that his writing as a 70 year old is so much neater than it was 30 years previously ... however, this could be down to using a better 'pen', and smoother paper to write on.  ;) He might also have made more effort on his will.

Still, very neat with firm confident strokes.

You often see wobbly writing on wills which may have been written last minute when the person was on their last legs.  :)

Offline goldie61

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Re: Signature of same person?
« Reply #6 on: Monday 13 May 19 01:01 BST (UK) »
I don't think there is any doubt that they are written by the same hand.
Carol

Snap Carol.

And the same as (definitely) the first 2 you posted.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline dacoutts

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Re: Signature of same person?
« Reply #7 on: Monday 13 May 19 01:54 BST (UK) »
The signatures from the 1657 & 1660 documents clearly match the 1680 & 1681 signatures.   The looseness of the script and the loops in the L's are the same.   The signature on the 1686 will gives me pause, though.   Is it possible that someone signed on his behalf?  Or as Ruskie mentioned, he may have been more careful on his will.

Online Ruskie

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Re: Signature of same person?
« Reply #8 on: Monday 13 May 19 09:48 BST (UK) »
The will signature is more “squished” than the others.  :)

Letters are more or less formed the same way, but I understand your reason for asking for a second opinion.

Probably not relevant in this example, but it is particularly evident in Copperplate writing - there were guidelines on how to form letters, so you see a certain amount of conformity in the writing, with perhaps more difficulty in determining different individual’s writing.

I would not think someone else would sign his will, but others may know differently.

Do those named in the will fit in with what you know about Henry and his family?