Author Topic: Williamson Crosier/Crozier from Armagh  (Read 189 times)

Offline sugarfizzle

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Williamson Crosier/Crozier from Armagh
« on: Monday 13 May 19 07:16 BST (UK) »
Henry Williamson was baptised 2 Dec 1843, Armagh, Armagh, Ireland
Illegitimate son of James Williamson and Ellen Crosier. Sponsor Kath Crosier.

Ellen and Henry Crosier came to Liverpool by 1851, Henry took the name of Williamson by 1861 census.  At marriage in 1865, Henry gave his father's details as James Williamson, Cabinet Maker.

I have been able to find out nothing else about James Williamson.

A couple of DNA matches are descended from  Williamson families of Armagh, but none have this James in their tree.

One match has William Williamson married to Mary Crozier in 1856, Lisnadill, Armagh, William's father given as John Williamson - no further back than this, no information about John.

Estimated year of birth for James Williamson, child born 1845, could be c 1824, estimated year of birth for William, married 1856, could be c 1835.

Maybe William and James were brothers, son of John? Or maybe John and  James were brothers?
Perhaps Mary, Ellen and Kath Crozier/Crosier are related?

So I have possiblities but not sure how to take this further, I am unfamiliar with searching Irish records. Any help would be much appreciated.

Regards Margaret
STEER, mainly Surrey, Kent; PINNOCKS/HAINES, Gosport, Hants; BARKER, mainly Broadwater, Sussex; Gosport, Hampshire; LAVERSUCH, Micheldever, Hampshire; WESTALL, London, Reading, Berks; HYDE, Croydon, Surrey; BRIGDEN, Hadlow, Kent and London; TUTHILL/STEPHENS, London
WILKINSON, Leeds, Yorkshire and Liverpool; WILLIAMSON, Liverpool; BEARE, Yeovil, Somerset; ALLEN, Kent and London; GORST, Liverpool; HOYLE, mainly Leeds, Yorkshire

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.go

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Offline BallyaltikilliganG

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Re: Williamson Crosier/Crozier from Armagh
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 14 May 19 22:29 BST (UK) »
have you used this source
1864 griffiths valuation sorted by parish in Armagh then by townland, then by name
Griffiths valuation four sources sources
1. https://www.failteromhat.com for quick index. 
2. http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/ for detail and map ref ..
3. https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/information-and-services/search-archives- 
4. PRONI online valuation continuation books since 1864-~1922to see when his name changed

Crozier   William           Ballymoran   Lisnadill   Armagh
Crozier   James      Seagahan   Lisnadill   Armagh
Crozier   John              Seagahan   Lisnadill   Armagh
Crozier   Robert      Seagahan   Lisnadill   Armagh
Crozier   Thomas           Seagahan   Lisnadill   Armagh
Crozier   William           Seagahan   Lisnadill   Armagh

Williamson   Margaret           Lisnadill   Lisnadill   Armagh
Williamson   James   Seagahan   Lisnadill   Armagh

earlier record are the 1823-1837 Tithes Applotment Books based upon the index work of the Irish Genealogy Hubís listing for each parish in Northern Ireland, The relevant original books are in the
Public Record Office of Northern Ireland (PRONI) Belfast
Crozier, David - Townland: Legaghan Year: 1832
Crozier, Hugh - Townland: Legaghan Year: 1832
Crozier, John - Townland: Legaghan Year: 1832
Crozier, Robert - Townland: Legaghan Year: 1832
Crozier, Thomas - Townland: Legaghan Year: 1832
Crozier, Widow - Townland: Legaghan Year: 1832
Crozier, William - Townland: Legaghan Year: 1832
Williamson, James - Townland: Legaghan Year: 1832 these are one line entries just giving name and quality of land held.


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Offline sugarfizzle

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Re: Williamson Crosier/Crozier from Armagh
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 16 May 19 13:40 BST (UK) »
Fascinating records, I'll have to work through them. I'll add these resources to my favourites.


Regards Margaret
STEER, mainly Surrey, Kent; PINNOCKS/HAINES, Gosport, Hants; BARKER, mainly Broadwater, Sussex; Gosport, Hampshire; LAVERSUCH, Micheldever, Hampshire; WESTALL, London, Reading, Berks; HYDE, Croydon, Surrey; BRIGDEN, Hadlow, Kent and London; TUTHILL/STEPHENS, London
WILKINSON, Leeds, Yorkshire and Liverpool; WILLIAMSON, Liverpool; BEARE, Yeovil, Somerset; ALLEN, Kent and London; GORST, Liverpool; HOYLE, mainly Leeds, Yorkshire

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.go

Offline BallyaltikilliganG

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Re: Williamson Crosier/Crozier from Armagh
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 23 May 19 16:09 BST (UK) »
Hi Margaret,
Question
Which church did Henry get baptized in Presbyterian or Church of ireland.   My reason is  68 years later the the 1911 census shows all the Crozier  were Presbyterian
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Lisnadill/Seagahan/
Crozier living at 19,20, 22, 35,36 in Seagahan (Lisnadill, Armagh) all Presbyterian
Williamson living at 40 in Seagahan (Lisnadill, Armagh) Church of ireland
this division might make finding church records easier or more complicated  so moving to surviving church records see https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/PRONI-Guide-to-Church-Records.pdf
there are 3 C of I churches in Lisnadill the most likely is
C.I.  Lisnadill (Armagh diocese)
[Earliest registers destroyed in Dublin]      ( that complicates  Agnes Crozier birth records}
Baptism and burials, 1877-; marriages, 1845-that allows some further search possibilities; vestry minutes, 1914-.
SO NOT ONLINE but donít forget the  other C of I , Aghavilly (Armagh diocese) and Armaghbreague (Armagh diocese)
[Partly in Lisnadill parish and partly in Keady parish Ė see under KEADY]
there no Presbyterian church in the townland checking are there one in nearest neighbouring townland requires too much time for me.
there was a catholic chapel  R.C. Ballymacnab (Kilcluney) (Armagh diocese) [see under KILCLOONEY]

Looking for a start in finding the presbyterian church the Croziers went too, the northern parish to Lisnadill is Armagh parish which confirms your Armagh, ArmaghP. 1st Armagh
Baptisms, 1707-28, 1796-1803 and 1825-1949; marriages, 1707-28, 1796≠ 1823 and 1825-1910; lists of seatholders, 1851, 1852 and 1857; indexes to baptisms, 1707-1803, and to marriages, 1707-1809; copies of session accounts, 1707-32, with a list of session members,1707.
Session accounts, 1707-32; committee minutes, 1821-34; session minutes, 1707-9; session and committee minutes, 1845-1938; stipend list, 1820; account book, 1821-34.
P. 2nd Armagh
Baptisms, 1825-1915; marriages, 1825≠ 1924.
P. 3rd Armagh
Baptisms, 1837-1916; marriages, 1838≠ 1907.
P. The Mall (2nd and 3rd)
[United in 1916 and became known as 3rd and then as the Mall]
Baptisms, 1916-86. of course there will be others to the east west and south of lisnadill.
So my reason is to ensure you have all the baptism information available from that entry . Did it mention townlands.
changing to geography Seagahan is described back to 1609 see NI Placenames

NEVERTHELESS the tithes only included both family names in Legaghan , there are no references to Seagahan in the tithes list as per http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/armagh/tithe-applotments/lisnadill-parish.php,   So I am thinking its a transcription error of of Seagahan.  Which strengthens the townland history
 
there are later Williamson lisnadill wills findable but no Crozier in that parish in https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/information-and-services/search-archives-online/will-calendars          entering registered Armagh at the top


PRONI ecatalogue has ref T2796 Level :Fond ;Title :Williamson papers Dates :1824 Description :Writ for debt, owed by David Williamson (Jnr.) and David Williamson (Snr.) of Lisnadill, Co. Armagh to Henry O'Hear, Ballyards, Co. Armagh.
another
PRONI ecatalogue D2784 Dates :   10 August 1839
Description :   Assignment of a lease from David Williamson and Leonora Williamson, his wife, Lisnadill, Co. Armagh, Samuel Dunlop and his wife Mary Anne Dunlop, Tattintlieve, Co. Monaghan, Harriet Glasgow, Lislea, Co. Armagh, Joseph Gray and Amelia Gray his wife, Markethill, Co. Armagh, and Frances Young and Charlotte Morrison, United States of America, to James Blair, Tassagh, Co. Armagh. The lease, for which Blair paid £150, for 9 acres in the townland of Goland, parish of Keady, Co. Armagh.

trying to help, so  hope you move on step by step, good luck onwards
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Offline sugarfizzle

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Re: Williamson Crosier/Crozier from Armagh
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 23 May 19 17:22 BST (UK) »
Wow, What a lot of information to sort through!

But Henry Williamson was baptised in Roman Catholic church, according to Ancestry. He appears in 2 records there, neither of them specifically state which church in Armagh, or that they are RC.

In Liverpool, Henry married and had his children baptised at St Luke's, a C of E church.

Is he likely to have been baptised at RC church if both parents had Presbyterian ancestry?

I know so very little about Irish research. This would be a possibility in English families for various reasons, but I get the feeling, maybe incorrectly, that religion was a more fixed thing in Ireland.

Regards Margaret
STEER, mainly Surrey, Kent; PINNOCKS/HAINES, Gosport, Hants; BARKER, mainly Broadwater, Sussex; Gosport, Hampshire; LAVERSUCH, Micheldever, Hampshire; WESTALL, London, Reading, Berks; HYDE, Croydon, Surrey; BRIGDEN, Hadlow, Kent and London; TUTHILL/STEPHENS, London
WILKINSON, Leeds, Yorkshire and Liverpool; WILLIAMSON, Liverpool; BEARE, Yeovil, Somerset; ALLEN, Kent and London; GORST, Liverpool; HOYLE, mainly Leeds, Yorkshire

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.go

Offline BallyaltikilliganG

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Re: Williamson Crosier/Crozier from Armagh
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 23 May 19 18:48 BST (UK) »
I would confirm your ancestry source. I found it by going onto https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
its free, it takes time, and then you see the actual image

Armagh | Microfilm 05590 / 04 page 121 Armagh; County of Armagh; Archdiocese of Armagh. Baptisms, Nov. 1843 to Dec. 1843 somewhere it says catholic records
my heading was reading https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632473#page/121/mode/1up

the entry is near the top of the page 
2 Dec 1843 Henry of James Williamson and Ellen Crozier then inside a handdrawn box what looks like
 [Mag I tc...he]
it needs someone familiar with latin, apologies from me.   Maritus married might have something to do with it   
the box is followed by & Cathí Crozier  so no townland etc
apologies for my expectations
Yet it makes me wonder if another denomination refused baptism and the catholic church offered.
Anyway well done yet again
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Offline sugarfizzle

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Re: Williamson Crosier/Crozier from Armagh
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 23 May 19 19:05 BST (UK) »
The actual images are available at Ancestry as well, just no mention on the image or first page of records what church it actually was, just says Armagh, Armagh.

I read the word in the box as 'Illegitimate'.

Regards Margaret
STEER, mainly Surrey, Kent; PINNOCKS/HAINES, Gosport, Hants; BARKER, mainly Broadwater, Sussex; Gosport, Hampshire; LAVERSUCH, Micheldever, Hampshire; WESTALL, London, Reading, Berks; HYDE, Croydon, Surrey; BRIGDEN, Hadlow, Kent and London; TUTHILL/STEPHENS, London
WILKINSON, Leeds, Yorkshire and Liverpool; WILLIAMSON, Liverpool; BEARE, Yeovil, Somerset; ALLEN, Kent and London; GORST, Liverpool; HOYLE, mainly Leeds, Yorkshire

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.go

Offline BallyaltikilliganG

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Re: Williamson Crosier/Crozier from Armagh
« Reply #7 on: Friday 24 May 19 08:25 BST (UK) »
Margaret, i dont think i am going to be of any further help to you. I am saying this because other more experienced  chatterers might be reading your query, and have further replies which i want to encourage for you.  so good luck onwards  BallyaltikilliganG
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