Dual RC/ CoE Baptism

[sallyyorks]

19th century.
Campaign against restoration of Catholic hierarchy in England 1850. Riot in Birkenhead 1850. 
Birkenhead, disturbances in 1859, cause: a Catholic burial ground.
Murphy riots 1860s. Plymouth, Wolverhampton, Birmingham, Rochdale, Stalybridge. William Murphy was killed in Whitehaven by Irish miners. https://hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/131-6-Neal.pdf

William Murphy was Irish. He was an immigrant who incited riots against other immigrants

'Garibaldi riots' 1862 provoked by campaign for reunification of  Italy. Disturbances in Hyde Park, London, and in Birkenhead. Protestant attacks on R.C. chapels Bradford, Leeds, Wakefield.
"The Birkenhead Garibaldi Riots of 1862" by F. Neal
https://hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/131-6-Neal.pdf

And again. These are sectarian issues from outside England spilling over into a largely unmoved English working class population. Compared to other 19th century riots and protests in England, Luddites, Swing Rioters, Peterloo, Chartism, Labour unrest and strikes, they are nothing but a footnote and the Garibaldi Riots do not even warrant their own wiki page

From your own link
Quote
'...Frequently, these [fracas] arose from rivalry
between Irishmen from different parts of Ireland, and
Liverpool, more than any other English town, experienced
these fratricidal disputes. Often the quarrels broke out
among the Irish whilst on their way to England. On 20 June
1846, for example, the steamship Roscommon was out of Dublin for Liverpool. Barely half an hour after sailing a fight broke out among the Irish deck passengers, involving groups
from different counties in Ireland.  ... Whilst working class
protestants were, in the main, unmoved by such issues as the
Maynooth Grant, the restoration of the Heirarchy or the Disestablishment of the Church of Ireland, inflammatory sermons on these issues gave some sort of legitimacy to
antagonistic feelings among protestant working men, the
roots of which lay elsewhere...'

'...on 5 April, 1862, the radical journal
Porcupine carried an article headed "Where are the No Popery
Men". The article was addressed to "the Collegiate
Institution, Hope Hall and Protestant garrisons generally".
The article began:
We, the undersigned, want to know whether all the orators of No
Popery, who used to be so clamourous in Liverpool when they could do
no good, have been stricken dumb just when they might render real
service? Are they aware that there is rising in the South of Europe the
great free Kingdom of Italy, whose destiny is to close the reign of Popery
once and forever? Are they aware that the rise of the noble Kingdom is
dreaded and hated by every advocate of superstition, priestcraft and
mental slavery all over the world?
The rest of the article is in the same vein, and takes the
Protestants of Liverpool to task for not exerting more political
pressure on those members of Parliament who were, it was
alleged, supporting Sir George Bowyer and Lord
Malmesbury, Catholic members of Parliament who were
rallying support for the Papacy against Garibaldi...In the event, 50 Garibaldi supporters
turned up and they were attacked by a group of Irishmen,
estimated at something between 150 and 500.


 

[bbart]

Hi Horsley,

There is a baptism for a child you may not have known about:

Elizabeth Ann Haynes, dau of John and Alice.  She was born 14 Sept 1897, and baptised at St. Mary's Church in Kirkdale on 04 Oct 1897.  They lived on what looks like Mark (?) St.
There is a corresponding birth register that the GRO gives the mother's maiden name as Rogers.  Little Elizabeth died the same quarter.

If you are registered at Familysearch (free), you should be able to see the image at:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9Y4-X3L8-B?i=402

Edit:
Just found another one in Catholic registers.... at St. Sylvester, Liverpool for "Helena" (so she could be Helen or Ellen, I believe.)  Parents are Joannis Haynes and Aliciae Rogers.  Helena was born 19 Dec 1908 and was baptised 01 Jan 1909.  Just like with James Edward, there was no sponsor on the father's side, and on the mother's side it was an Emilia Kelly.

[Blue70]

It doesn't say Irish v Irish the differences were between catholics and protestants. It compares the rioting to the type common in Belfast. You don't seem to know about the history of that part of Liverpool I have both Catholic and Protestant ancestry and connections to the area so I've got local knowledge of what it was like. It's much better these days. For information about catholic chapels in Liverpool being attacked in the 18th century see the history of St Mary's RC Liverpool its early chapels were attacked by mobs:-

https://archive.org/details/catholichistoryo00burkuoft/page/n6


Blue

I do know something about the history of Lancashire and I also have Lancashire Catholics, CofE and nonconformists in my tree.
What do you mean by 'Protestant'? Do you mean your Irish ancestors or your English CofE ancestors?

Various places in 18th C. Preston and neighbouring villages (A mob from Preston). London, Liverpool. Probably other places.
Times: 1715 & 1745 Jacobite Risings; Jacobite Army occupied Preston 1716.

The Jacobite attempt at an invasion of England was led by an English landowning Protestant MP, Thomas Forster. This rather weak attempt was met with little resistance in the north of England apart from the siege at Preston and even there the townsfolk were not heavily involved.
It wasn't a simple case of Protestant versus Catholic, far from it

1780 Gordon Riots which were a reaction to the Catholic Relief Acts. Gordon Riot was a recent topic on Melvyn Bragg's Radio 4 series "In Our Time", available on BBC iPlayer or BBC Sounds. The senior Catholic bishop in England had to go into hiding in London.

The Gordon rioters were multi denomination and even multi ethnic Londoners. The hanged leaders of the riot, which included at least 2 black people and a Romany Gypsy, came from a wide range of backgrounds and even included London Catholics. The primary objective of the rioters seems to have been looting, and was not driven by any religious or political concerns the participants had
The actual riot was opportunistic and had little to do with the original meeting/protest led by the Scottish Protestant nobility in the form of Lord George Gordon. Again another example of imported whipped up sectarianism. This time from heavily Protestant Scotland

The papal decree on marriage "Ne Temere" 1908 which required a Catholic to marry in presence of a Catholic priest caused ill-feeling.

I come from an English mixed Catholic and High Church background but have never heard of this before, so can't really comment

I've wondered if the reason why the marriage of my Scottish Catholic 3xGGF to my English C. of E. 3xGGM at St. Ignatius R.C. church, Preston didn't happen until the end of the month of her 21st birthday, 2 years after birth of their 1st child, was parental objection due to folk memory of 2 Jacobite armies marching to Preston. Their 2 sons were baptised C. of E. The 2 daughters might have been R.C.  Great-granddaughters of Scottish 3xGGF were the trio who had 2 baptisms.

Or maybe 'folk memory' wasn't even considered, who knows? It's all speculation

This is my last post on this thread as I feel like I'm wasting my time here trying to explain about the area where these people came from. I think I'm contributing useful and interesting information from my local knowledge but I'm getting heckled. Now I'm being asked what do I mean by protestant? In Liverpool people from a variety of reformed christian backgrounds were called protestants. To most catholics non catholics were protestants. Protestants went to state schools or their church schools. They grew up in a bitterly divided society where you were thought to be one or the other, catholic or protestant, where your religious background could affect your wellbeing and quality of life depending on the religion of the people you encountered in your life such was the hatred and prejudice of the time. 


Blue

[sallyyorks]

This is my last post on this thread as I feel like I'm wasting my time here trying to explain about the area where these people came from. I think I'm contributing useful and interesting information from my local knowledge but I'm getting heckled. Now I'm being asked what do I mean by protestant? In Liverpool people from a variety of reformed christian backgrounds were called protestants. To most catholics non catholics were protestants. Protestants went to state schools or their church schools. They grew up in a bitterly divided society where you were thought to be one or the other, catholic or protestant, where your religious background could affect your wellbeing and quality of life depending on the religion of the people you encountered in your life such was the hatred and prejudice of the time. 


Blue

No one is 'heckling' you Blue
We just disagree, its OK to do that and discuss it. We all interpret history in our own way. It would be a boring thing if everyone always agreed with each other, all the time