Author Topic: Dual RC/ CoE Baptism  (Read 4201 times)

Offline Horsley2016

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Dual RC/ CoE Baptism
« on: Thursday 16 May 19 12:34 BST (UK) »
Hello.

I've discovered a family line that crosses the RC/CoE a fair bit it has to be said! Something I always thought was sacrilege, especially in the Scotland Road area of Liverpool... Anyway. I have a relative James Edward Haynes born 3rd May 1899. He is baptised on 15th May at St Marys Church Kirkdale. John and Alice are listed as parents. This is the Church they married in too.

Then, on 13 Nov 1900, with the same DOB and details, he is baptised at St Albans RC. His Godmother is also his Grandmother here. On the records it has been written 'Conditionalier' over the top. Could this have some meaning towards crossing religion?

John and Alice have later children, can only find baptism for one other though - Ruth who is baptised RC at St Anthonys in 1905. Tey lose 2 children in 1909 and 1912 and they are buried at the Catholic Cemetery.

Any thoughts? Was this common?
Thanks
M

Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Dual RC/ CoE Baptism
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 16 May 19 13:15 BST (UK) »
English Catholics are or were, not uncommon in Lancashire.

Offline stanmapstone

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Re: Dual RC/ CoE Baptism
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 16 May 19 16:06 BST (UK) »
On the records it has been written 'Conditionalier' over the top. Could this have some meaning towards crossing religion?


It is Conditional Baptism in the Catholic Church: Conditional Baptism If it be uncertain whether the convert's baptism was valid or not, then he is to be baptized conditionally. In such cases the ritual is: "If thou art not yet baptized, then I baptize thee in the name", etc. Usually entered as "sub conditione baptized" http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#vii
In the Church of England it is called a Hypothetical baptism.

Stan
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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Dual RC/ CoE Baptism
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 16 May 19 20:43 BST (UK) »
My thoughts.
Mixed marriage.
One or both parents became Catholic or returned to the faith sometime before November 1900.
Granny was Catholic and exerted influence. (Was she definitely godmother? Was she paternal or maternal grandmother?)
Was there a revitalising mission at the Catholic church in 1900? A new, enthusiastic priest who visited homes and shepherded stray sheep?
Were John and Alice married before birth of James Edward?

NB. The Catholic Church in England recognised as valid marriages of Catholics conducted in Anglican churches until 1908. (Ne Temere papal decree on marriage). Some Catholic couples may have married in C. of E. because it was cheaper and simpler - no need for a registrar as there would have been for a wedding at a Catholic church.
There was a custom in Ireland in 19th century for parents in a Church of Ireland-Catholic marriage to work out a compromise about which church to have their children baptised. Sons baptised at their father's church and daughters at their mothers was a common arrangement. There are published studies on religious affiliation of children of mixed marriages. There are other threads on RootsChat about children of mixed marriages being baptised in different denominations and threads about 'double' and conditional baptisms.
3 of my great-aunts were baptised as babies in C. of E. When they were aged respectively 5, 3 and 1 they were baptised conditionally in a batch at a Catholic church. Younger children were baptised as babies at R.C. church. Their mother was baptised C. of E. Their father and paternal grandmother may have been R.C. Their paternal aunt (godmother) and great-grandfather were R.C. but the latter had died or disappeared when his children were young, so wasn't around to offer an opinion on his great-grandchildren.
Cowban


Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Dual RC/ CoE Baptism
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 16 May 19 22:11 BST (UK) »

Something I always thought was sacrilege, especially in the Scotland Road area of Liverpool...


Why might this have been considered sacrilege?


John and Alice are listed as parents. This is the Church they married in too.

Is this John and Alice's marriage?

John Haynes - Birth Date- 1873
Alice Rodgers -  Birth Date-1875
Marriage- 23 Sep 1894
St Mary Kirkdale, Walton On The Hill, Lancaster, England
Father's Name:   
James Haynes (Deceased)
Spouse's Father's Name:   
Edward Rodgers (Deceased)


John and Alice have later children, can only find baptism for one other though - Ruth who is baptised RC at St Anthonys in 1905. Tey lose 2 children in 1909 and 1912 and they are buried at the Catholic Cemetery.

Any thoughts? Was this common?
Thanks
M

Yes it was quite common for people to change denominations, for various reasons. It wouldn't be unusual if the family are 'old' Catholic but have used both the CofE as well as the RC church over many generations. Maybe it was just simply a matter of convenience, the near locality of a particular popular church.
People often did intermarry between Catholic and CofE, or between nonconformist and CofE. I would think the easiest way to do it, especially traditionally, was by a CofE ceremony . 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_Act_1836

https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/transformingsociety/private-lives/relationships/overview/lawofmarriage-/


Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Dual RC/ CoE Baptism
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 16 May 19 22:48 BST (UK) »
English Catholics are or were, not uncommon in Lancashire.
They were common in some areas, 25-30%, even before the Irish influx of mid 19th century.
Cowban

Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Dual RC/ CoE Baptism
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 16 May 19 22:56 BST (UK) »
English Catholics are or were, not uncommon in Lancashire.
They were common in some areas, 25-30%, even before the Irish influx of mid 19th century.

Yes and those were just the recusants who were recorded. The reality of the numbers of 'conforming' Catholics was probably much higher than mapped below


Offline Blue70

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Re: Dual RC/ CoE Baptism
« Reply #7 on: Friday 17 May 19 10:48 BST (UK) »
To explain a bit why this was controversial and the relevance of Scotland Road. This part of north Liverpool was considered to be near the border of two different communities. Scotland Road was more Catholic and Netherfield Road Protestant. The supposed border usually being Great Homer Street.

These areas experienced sectarian riots where people were forced from their homes for being the wrong religion in the wrong place. So it was drilled into people of both faiths in these areas to stick to their religion and people who married out of their faith were often disowned by family members.


Blue

Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Dual RC/ CoE Baptism
« Reply #8 on: Friday 17 May 19 12:12 BST (UK) »
To explain a bit why this was controversial and the relevance of Scotland Road. This part of north Liverpool was considered to be near the border of two different communities. Scotland Road was more Catholic and Netherfield Road Protestant. The supposed border usually being Great Homer Street.

These areas experienced sectarian riots where people were forced from their homes for being the wrong religion in the wrong place. So it was drilled into people of both faiths in these areas to stick to their religion and people who married out of their faith were often disowned by family members.


Blue


This would be an imported sectarianism though. They were problems between Irish Catholic and Irish Protestant immigrants.
The topic family appear to be English CofE and English Catholic. Not sure how much a Scotland road area native CofE, Catholic or nonconformist, would get involved in any argument between two Irish communities? Wouldn't most native Lancashire/Liverpool people in the area want to stay out of such hostilities. The indigenous English heritage Scotland road CofE and Catholics wouldn't have the same history of animosity toward each other.