Missing marriage?

[goldie61]

I can’t find a marriage anywhere for the following people:

Thomas Wallis/Wallace and Ellen Jenkins circa 1890 probably Derbyshire, but have looked for the whole of England!

In the 1881 Census they both live at 42 Queen Street Ironville Derbyshire in the household of William Wallace widower.
Thomas is his grandson son aged 16, a coal miner, born Ironville.
Ellen is Ellen Jenkins, ‘step daughter’, aged 11, born Staffordshire, Darlaston.

Thomas’s father, another Thomas Wallace, William’s son, also lives there with his wife Anne Maria Wallace, daughter in law, born Staffs.

Thomas Wallace senior married Ann Maria Jenkins Sept 1868 at West Bromwich.
Ellen was born Sept 1869 (mother's maiden name given as  Bainbridge - see below) Darlaston, Staffs.

By 1891 all are at 42 Queen Street, Ironville. Ann Maria Wallis is a widow. Thomas junior is 35, born Ironville coal miner, and Ellen is now Ellen Wallis aged 31, born Darlaston, Staffs.
They have 5 small children. All their birth registrations give the mother’s maiden name as Jenkins. The eldest on the 1891 Census is Maria aged 9. There don’t seem to be any earlier births on the GRO.
I don’t think there’s much doubt this is the correct people.

Can anybody help please?

(To complicate matters, Ann Maria had had probably 3 other surnames in her life before this - Bainbridge, Care and Dudley as well as Jenkins! And she used them when and where she wanted.
But I can’t see any Ellen for those names either).

Thanks very much.

[chris_49]

You had me going there with the thought that Ellen had 5 children in her teens! Of course you mean the 1901. So far I can't find this family in 1891. and then this 1868 West Brom marriage which I couldn't find (Ann's first?) - which would make Thomas and Ellen step-siblings so of course they couldn't marry!

In fact the Thomas to Ann wedding was in Belper district in 1880. Hence the confusion on the 1881 census, Ellen and siblings are not the stepchildren of William but of Thomas.

But could this be yet another case of a marriage not happening at all? In this case the reasoning being that Thomas and Ellen having been brought up effectively as siblings, though they were not actually related? Someone in the congregation might have thought they were?

[goldie61]

You had me going there with the thought that Ellen had 5 children in her teens! Of course you mean the 1901.

In fact the Thomas to Ann wedding was in Belper district in 1880. Hence the confusion on the 1881 census, Ellen and siblings are not the stepchildren of William but of Thomas.

But could this be yet another case of a marriage not happening at all? In this case the reasoning being that Thomas and Ellen having been brought up effectively as siblings, though they were not actually related? Someone in the congregation might have thought they were?

Thanks chris.

Yes, sorry 1901. They are not at that address in 1891.

Ironville comes under Belper registration district.

That was my thought - that they never actually married, although they were not blood related, so presumably could have done.
Glad you could see your way through the mire!
People in the town must have known they were brought up together though. It's not a very big place.
Mind you, Ellen's mother, AND grandmother , were not averse to bothering what the neighbours thought of them!

[AMBLY]

The daughter Maria Georgina's baptism has all the clues you need 

Baptised 24 Sep 1892 in the Parish Church of Ironville with Codnor Park
Father: Thomas WALLIS, Soldier
Mother: Nellie WALLIS
Abode: London

Thomas  has a Service record:

* Thomas WALLIS age 18 years and 6 months.
* Army Number: 9550
* Joined Grenadier Guards at London on 7 Nov 1884
* Born Codnor Park, Alfreton
* Labourer
* Not Married
* Has never lived outside of his father's house.
* Had previous militia service 3rd  Btn Derbyshire Regiment
* 5',8" tall, Fresh complexion, grey eyes, brown hair.
* Religion Weslyan
* He was appointed, promoted to Cpl then Sgt and extended his 7 years service to 12 year with Colors. Then around May 1892, he went off the rails  for that whole year- absent, jailed, trialed, convicted and demoted and so on. Finally discharged 4 Nov 1896. He served the whole time at  "Home" - ie in the UK.
NOK was listed as his father, Thomas . It was never changed to his wife's name, nor any notation regards dependant children.

In 1891, he was probably somewhere in London  or in a hospital in Woolwich, or in Dublin - more likely the latter. It looks like the London & the Woolwich times were all around April 1890 whilst he was being treated for his.....ailment. By 5 Dec 1891, he was in London again, after Dublin.

Cheers 
AMBLY

[goldie61]

Well, Thomas certainly seems to have an interesting time in his youth! 

Thanks for all that information Ambly.

As I said, I had searched for the whole of England, including London, but nothing was coming up.

I have just found a record under the 'Andrews Newspaper Index Cards' on Ancestry for Thomas Wallis and Nellie Jenkins Dec qr 1891 at St George's, Hanover Square London.
From what I can glean, ST George's is also a civil parish, so the marriage may not have taken place at this actual church.
I wonder if they lived in London, or Thomas kept popping back to Derbyshire from time to time!
Still nothing of this on FindMyPast, famsearch, or the ordinary search in ancestry. It's odd though, as the entry on the card gives the volume and page number in the GRO indexes, and I thought they were transcribed on all those sites.
I managed to find it lastly on Freebmd and they confirm the same details - so found at last!
Odd that it's not on the other 3 main sites though.

Can I just ask about your last sentence?
You say you think he was in a hospital?
Is that from something you found in a newspaper? - The London & Woolwich times? which website is that on?

[AMBLY]

Hi Goldie

 

The Voila moment!  Nothing like it, hey?

At the very least, Nellie popped back to Derbyshire to birth the children, I suppose. She at least followed him to London to marry.  Being with the Grenadier Guards, he was around Windsor, etc a lot.

Thomas' health was not so good from 1888 to 1892 all whilst in the Army.....a specific ailment, it's all on his Service Record.  If you have access to FindMyPast you should find the record there (Thomas Wallis b 1866 Derbyshire) - but if you have trouble finding it let me know :-)

Edit: Oh sorry, no not Times Newspaper - I meant the times he was in London and Woolwich, was when he was in hospital. In one instance, I think he was initally in London hospital  and transferred to Woolwich Hospital

Also, the Grenadier Guards have their own Hospital in London..... in 1891 there are 5 pages of it. Couldn't see him there  but then, his service record indicated he was discharged from hospital on 5 Nov 1890 and had no further admissions after that (I'll refind and post the co-ordinates for you to have a look).

PS: Thomas' Army Attestation identifies him as Weslyan - so this may be why he doesn't appear in the Parish marriages for St George's, Hanover Square.


Cheers
AMBLY

[goldie61]

Yes I saw he was a Methodist.
But the marriage should still be in the indexes of the registrations - well, it is, but only on freebmd.
The other 3 big sites have the indexes transcribed, so I don't know why it's not on them.
I did read somewhere there were a lot of missing indexes on the GRO (but I thought that was births, and deaths, but maybe marriages too), and if the other sites have just filmed what's at the GRO................ they'll be missing them too I guess.

I have to look at FindMyPast at the library. No sub. Not a big deal though - it's very close to me.
Thomas is not an actual relative of mine - there are so many 'extended family' members in this lot!
But it's interesting to see what happened to him.

We tend to think that just because they are in a Census at one point in time, and then in another later on at the same place, that they've never really been very far, or done much.
It always amazes me how far people did go though -  this is not terrible early - 1890s, but I have one ancestor who lived in the depths of Derbyshire, his wife from Shropshire, and I found their marriage at St Clement Danes London in 1710! Quite a shock. Makes you wonder just what they got up! 

[Jebber]

I do not understand why you say the marriage is missing on the big sites.

The marriage is indexed on Findmypast, The Genealogist and Ancestry, it all shows up with no problem.

[JenB]

Still nothing of this on FindMyPast, famsearch, or the ordinary search in ancestry.

As Jebber says, marriage is definitely on FindMyPast: i just searched Thomas Wallis + Ellen Jenkins (ticked variant boxes) 1891 +/- 2 years and it is the only result I get.