Joseph Septimus Carr - who is he?

[cafetiere]

I've been struggling to find a Catherine Lambert with a father called William - which seems odd to me as they seem to be fairly common names. The Lancashire records only show a father called James.

Ancestry only finds 11 results for that combination and they are based in Hull, Gatesehead, London or Bristol which don't seem obvious links to me. But there is one from Wexford. This shows a

Catherine Lambert
Birth   
12 Feb 1841
Baptism   
13 Feb 1841 Wexford, Ireland

Father William Lambert and mother Alice Furlong.

Unfortunately, the Irish genealogy records don't go back as far as 1841 so I'll have to see if there are links to my Catherine via sibling's marriages.

I'm sure I read on here recently about people from Wexford coming to work in Garston for a particular trade. But I can't remember the details at the moment and, of course, people from Wexford may move to Liverpool anyway.

[Maiden Stone]

I've been struggling to find a Catherine Lambert with a father called William - which seems odd to me as they seem to be fairly common names. The Lancashire records only show a father called James.

Ancestry only finds 11 results for that combination and they are based in Hull, Gatesehead, London or Bristol which don't seem obvious links to me. But there is one from Wexford. This shows a

Catherine Lambert
Birth   
12 Feb 1841
Baptism   
13 Feb 1841 Wexford, Ireland

Father William Lambert and mother Alice Furlong.

Unfortunately, the Irish genealogy records don't go back as far as 1841 so I'll have to see if there are links to my Catherine via sibling's marriages.

I'm sure I read on here recently about people from Wexford coming to work in Garston for a particular trade. But I can't remember the details at the moment and, of course, people from Wexford may move to Liverpool anyway.

Catherine's birth year is uncertain. Year of birth as estimated from her stated age on documents vary from 1836 to 1843. Thomas's estimated birth year was more consistent, varying by only a year or so.
Catherine's ages & estimated year of birth:
1858 marriage to Francis Johnson. Catherine's age? (Reply #48)
1861 census age 25 = estimated year of birth 1836. She was with her aunt & uncle, Margaret & Daniel Wilson. Lodger was future 2nd husband Thomas Irvine, aged 23. So Catherine was 2 years older than Thomas at this point. (Reply #59)
1871 census. Catherine was aged 32 = estimated y.o.b. 1839.  Catherine has aged only 7 years in a decade.  (Reply #13)
1881 census. Cath. aged 43 = estimated y.o.b. 1838  (Reply #4)
1890 marriage to Thomas. Catherine's age was stated as 47 = estimated y.o.b. 1843. (Slowest aging rate of only 4 years in 9 ! Thomas had overtaken her in age.)
1891 census. Cath. aged 50 = estimated y.o.b. 1841. Catherine has again aged  only 7 years since  previous census but her marriage has added at least 2 years to her age. (Reply #4)

Imo her ages on early records are likely to have been nearer the truth. So possibly born in 2nd half of 1830s. If born in Ireland, chances are it was in a parish with no baptism records for those years.
Any clues as to Catherine's religion?
Was Clara definitely Catherine's last child?

Liverpool Irish would have been from all over.

If you need help in tracing Catherine's Irish origins I suggest you start a fresh thread on the Ireland board. Put a summary of her life and connections in Liverpool and Newchurch/Waterfoot (her aunt Margaret (Lambert) Wilson, the 2 marriages, pretending to be married to Thomas, switching and swapping surnames, fibbing about father's name etc.).  Include a link to this thread so that people can see what's already been found. Add a link here to a new thread about Catherine. You may need time to sort out information on this thread before launching into another.
Should you need to find your old threads in the future, click on your profile.

[Maiden Stone]

Francis Johnson - Catherine Lambert marriage was at St. Peter, Liverpool 1858.

[cafetiere]

Thanks very much for summarising it all like that for me - very helpful. And thanks for the tip to start a new thread when I'm ready to launch into looking for Catherine (I'd forgotten about the lodging census entry).

Re Catherine's religion, no, no clues. And nothing has come up suggesting a child beyond Clara but I hadn't considered that yet as I was looking under the wrong names originally.

I've got lots of questions about Ireland - I've got a brick wall or 4 there. 

Thanks again.

[mckha489]

I’ve not seen any births after Clara.

Earliest dob if age 1861 census is correct is 1836 this would make her 41 at birth of Clara. If no others after her, then the earlier dob seems more likely I.m.o.

[Maiden Stone]

And, whilst looking for Thomas Carrs born in 1871, I found a Thomas Joseph Carr marrying in 1898 and giving his address as Hunter Street, Liverpool. Hunter St was the road Catherine Lambert gave on her marriage banns. But he lists his father as John Carr. 

Perhaps this family?
Baptism 2nd Feb. 1864 St. Peter, Liverpool
Thomas George Carr, child of John Carr & Harriet.
Born 30th Dec. 1863. Abode Hunter St. Father's occupation Professor of dancing.

[cafetiere]

Perhaps this family?
Baptism 2nd Feb. 1864 St. Peter, Liverpool
Thomas George Carr, child of John Carr & Harriet.
Born 30th Dec. 1863. Abode Hunter St. Father's occupation Professor of dancing.
[/quote]

Thank you. Professor of dancing - wow! I'm going to assume it might be a name coincidence of 2 x Thomas Carrs in the same street. Looked on Google and it's all demolished now. But I'll definitely take a look this weekend.

Still trying to unpick the Lamberts and the Bonds but I won't post until I've got a clear question.

For completeness:

I think Daniel Wilson married Margaret Lambert (as Catherine/Kate) is niece on 1861 census so Margaret is the aunt  - there's a marriage in 1845.

Then DW married Mary Bond in 1866. Widow and called Mary Lambert on banns. Witness John Bond (Boud on record).

Mary Bond married James Lambert in 1833 then DW.

I'm wondering if James and William were brothers. Margaret's father (Catherine's grandfather) is Lawrence (a butcher) and born in Ireland. And just looking at the banns again, a James Lambert has witnessed two other marriages - but not all on same day i.e. he wasn't just hanging around after her got married.

I can't see where I've written it but I think James and Mary were also born in Ireland (oh, 1851 census). So, I assume William Lambert also Irish. And those dates are too far back to look at Irish records online.

Thanks again, it's been really interesting.

[cafetiere]

Found these births and deaths on the Lancashire site. I wonder if Kate Maria and Catherine is Catherine Lambert?


Death
Jan 1867 • Haslingden, Lancashire
Burial: 30 Mar 1867 St Nicholas, Newchurch in Rossendale, Lancashire, England Joseph Septimus Irvine - Son of Thomas Irvine & Catherine Age: 4 years Abode: Tunstead Bottoms Buried by: Jno. G. Haworth Register: Burials 1860 - 1871,


Baptism: 14 Jan 1872 St James the Great, Waterfoot, Lancashire, England Thomas Teaby Irvine - [Child] of Thomas Irvine & Kate Maria Born: 5 Nov 1871 Abode: Waterfoot Occupation: Painter Baptised by: Robt. Smith

[mckha489]

Yes

See replies 11 & 13