Author Topic: Joseph Hall - John Dooler - same person?  (Read 1231 times)

Offline PAK

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Joseph Hall - John Dooler - same person?
« on: Friday 24 May 19 16:22 BST (UK) »
My ancestor Elizabeth Dooler (1786-1847) married Thomas Hall (1784-1856) in Audlem, Cheshire on 17th January 1809. I've found seven children born between 1809 and 1825. One of them was Thomas junior (born 1813, haven't found his death date yet) and in 1861 he was a widower with 4 children and his mother-in-law Margaret Dale, presumably there to look after the children.
However, also there is a Joseph Hall aged 54, a former club house keeper and shown as his brother. I found him in Liverpool in 1851, a club manager at 17 Lord Street (now a branch of the Nationwide Building Society). In each case he is shown as born in Audlem. But I have found no other record of him. There is a Joseph Hall born in Audlem in 1808, but he is the son of William and Martha, whose relationship to my family is not yet known.
Then I remembered that Elizabeth had had an illegitimate son, baptised as John Dooler, also in 1808. Again I have no further trace of him.
Clearly there are two different people. But if Joseph the son of William and Martha is the one who was a club manager, why was he shown as Thomas' brother?
I wondered if the  "brother" might indicate that this might be John Dooler. It's easy to imagine that he would have changed his name to Hall after his mother married. But less easy to wonder why he took the name Joseph instead of John.
I don't suppose there is any way of proving this but thought I would float it past the experts to see if anyone has any thoughts.
Well, thanks for reading anyway!

Offline ShaunJ

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Re: Joseph Hall - John Dooler - same person?
« Reply #1 on: Friday 24 May 19 17:11 BST (UK) »
The club at 17 Lord Street in 1851 was the Liver Club.
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Tall Al

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Re: Joseph Hall - John Dooler - same person?
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 25 May 19 09:10 BST (UK) »
Hi,

Not wishing to be negative but are you sure the 1861 census relates to your family?

In this census, Thomas is shown as 43 and as such would have been born c1817 (not 1813). Joseph is shown age 54 and so was born c1807. Both Family Search and Cheshire Parish Records Project have a Thomas (Baptised in 1818) and Joseph (baptised in 1808) belonging to William and Martha Hall.

Family Search also have loads of children to Thomas and Elizabeth Hall in Audlem between 1809 and 1825 and I suspect there could be at least 2 families involved. They also have some family trees with Thomas Hall and Elizabeth Dooley's 11 children showing as John 1808; Hannah 1809; Helen 1811; William 1814; Thomas 1817; Samuel 1818; Elizabeth 1823; Sarah 1825; George 1827 Milly 1829 and Ann1830. Notably no Joseph.

This looks like a complicated family to unravel

Alan

Offline PAK

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Re: Joseph Hall - John Dooler - same person?
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 25 May 19 17:55 BST (UK) »
Thanks to Alan - complicated is right!

You're right that there were two couples named Thomas and Elizabeth Hall in Audlem at the time. Mine was a tailor, who married Elizabeth Dooler (not Dooley). The other was a farmer in the adjacent parish of Buerton. I have taken care to claim only those children where the baptism records show their father as a tailor. They are Hannah (1809-13), William (1814), Thomas (1817), Samuel (1817-1879), Helen (1821), Betty (1823) and my ancestor Sarah (1825-1893).

A typo on my part for Thomas junior's birth - I agree it is 1817.

Thomas born in 1818 was the son of Joseph, a farmer, whereas mine is shown as the son of Thomas the tailor on the marriage record to Elizabeth Dale in 1841. At that time they both lived in Hanley. I then found them in Worsley, Lancs, with one son born in Hanley, and the other 3 in Worsley. Then in 1861 I found Thomas, widowed, in Caverswall, Staffs, with the three younger children and with his mother-in-law Margaret Dale also living there, no doubt to look after the children. As you know, this is the record that also shows the mysterious "brother" Joseph.

That's the sum of my research so far - I don't know if it suggests any further ideas you can offer.

P.S. Thanks to Shaun - what was the Liver Club?


Offline garstonite

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Re: Joseph Hall - John Dooler - same person?
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 26 May 19 06:35 BST (UK) »
Field Name   Field Value
KEYCODE   AUDLC03500971.00071
PADVER   audlC0971.0
PARISH_CODE   AUDL
TAGGED   0
DATED   8081009
FORENAME   JOHN
SEX   M
MOTHER_FORENAME   ELIZABETH
SURNAME   DOOLER
ILLEGITIMACY   I
so John Dooler was baptised 8th Oct 1808..
oakes,liverpool..neston..backford..poulton cum spittal(bebington)middlewich,cheshire......   sacht,helgoland  .......merrick,herefordshire adams,shropshire...tipping..ellis..  jones,garston,liverpool..hartley.dunham massey..barker. salford

Offline garstonite

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Re: Joseph Hall - John Dooler - same person?
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 26 May 19 06:47 BST (UK) »
A Massive stab in the dark - I wonder if he was a Drummer in clubs before he was a manager ?

Baptism: 21 May 1828 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Charles Doolar - Son of John Doolar & Mary
    Abode: Great Bolton
    Occupation: Drummer
    Baptised by: J Slade Vicar
    Register: Baptisms 1827 - 1829, Page 83, Entry 662
    Source: LDS Family Search

Baptism: 21 May 1828 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Elizth Doolar - Daughter of John Doolar & Mary
    Abode: Great Bolton
    Occupation: Drummer
    Baptised by: J Slade Vicar
    Register: Baptisms 1827 - 1829, Page 83, Entry 663
    Source: LDS Family Search
.....................................
more than likely wrong - but just in case it is of possible interest
could Dooler  be Doolar ?
oakes,liverpool..neston..backford..poulton cum spittal(bebington)middlewich,cheshire......   sacht,helgoland  .......merrick,herefordshire adams,shropshire...tipping..ellis..  jones,garston,liverpool..hartley.dunham massey..barker. salford

Offline DCB

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Re: Joseph Hall - John Dooler - same person?
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 26 May 19 11:35 BST (UK) »
This marriage seems to differ from the one that you mention and suggests that Thomas and Joseph are sons of William

Thomas Hall
Marriage date: 22 Feb 1841
Marriage place: Wolstanton, St Margaret
Residence: Tunstall
Father: William Hall a joiner
Spouse: Elizabeth Dale
Spouse's age: Minor
Spouse's residence: Tunstall
Spouse's father: Bromley Dale a potter   
County:   Staffordshire

Elizabeth Dale
Baptism date: 23 Feb 1823 at Hanley, Staffordshire, daughter of Bromley and Margaret

David

Offline Tall Al

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Re: Joseph Hall - John Dooler - same person?
« Reply #7 on: Monday 27 May 19 14:41 BST (UK) »
Hi,

I have just noticed on Cheshire Parish Register Database, a death of a Thomas Hall in Audlem (AUDL) age 46 on 19 July 1863 - about the right age - I wondered if this could be of interest to you?

Alan

Offline PAK

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Re: Joseph Hall - John Dooler - same person?
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 28 May 19 14:45 BST (UK) »
Thanks to all - and in particular to David and Alan. Although I had checked the occupations of the fathers of the various Thomases on the baptism records, I should have done the same on the marriage record (and usually do where it's available). As you say, the one who married Elizabeth Dale is indeed the son of a joiner so that one is out.
As it happens, I had picked up the death of TH in 1863 as I had also found the will of a TH dated 31.3.1860 which gives a lot of detail about his family - though most of it his inlaws. He was born in Audlem, married in Standon near Eccleshall and lived there in the hamlet of Chatcull. I found them there in 1861, but as "Thos" and "Elizth" so they didn't show up at first but I am now sure that this is mine.
Perhaps fortunately they had no children so I don't have a lot more research! Again, many thanks. Rootschat saves the day once again.