Author Topic: Nottingham stopping ground-Smiths Field? Help  (Read 7103 times)

Offline panished

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Re: Nottingham stopping ground-Smiths Field? Help
« Reply #45 on: Sunday 01 September 19 20:00 BST (UK) »
https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/the-gypsys-encampment-nottingham-from-wilford-hill-22830

Sky there is Nottingham about no more than two miles away, just down in the trent valley is the places we talk of, if you look between the gap in the two trees on the right just above that horse you will see a big hill, i live just over there, about a mile from this picture or a bit less is the river Trent and the lands we talk of, its just straight ahead in the picture, the flat low lands, trust me i know all these lands, the wind would carry the water that was evaperated from the sea inland, when it met high ground it gathered into dark clouds, then it rained in little brooks then streams then into the river Trent , then of to the Sea, in the old times there was the ice age, they had what you call claziers, big rivers of ice, they carved out vast highways in low lighing land, look at the picture in the link above, this is the Trent Valley, behond is Nottingham, yeares back the Gipsies stoped in the Farmers fields but the incloser laws and such drove them nearer to the Town, closers to the City, the Gipsies have been round my town for hundreds of yeares, its just, the writer people have been looking for a people who never existed, the Gipsies have always been alive, why did strangers just think they have to talk of them like exstinct dinosaurs

Robert Mellors, Old Nottingham suburbs: then and now [West Bridgford] (1914)extract
When Throsby, about one hundred and twenty years ago, visited the place, he described it as old Inclosure—that is enclosed probably in the sixteenth or seventeenth century. It was well built, and consisted of about thirty dwellings. "Mr. Hornbuckle, a gentleman of considerable property, resides in one, built in a pretty style. A resident, of the name of Easton, is now in good health at the advanced age of ninety. The Clerk informed me that there was not a dissenter in the place!!" It was, however, a favourite haunt for gipsies, being near to the town, but outside the stricter supervision. The Wilford Lane, near to Boots' Pleasaunce Grounds, was a choice spot. Spencer Hall in the "Peak and Plain" sings—

"Wilford whichever way to thee we come
From thy surrounding plains,
Whether by Clifton's wood walks dim,
Or Bridgford's Gipsy haunted lanes."

 H. Hampton Copnall, Nottinghamshire County Records: Notes and Extracts from the Nottinghamshire County Records of the 17th Century, Henry B. Saxton, 1915 extract
 
The Justices had full power at any time to cancel Licences, and they did so on the complaint or at the instance of inhabitants of Parishes:
In 1615, the Justices outside Sessions had made an Order disallowing certain tipulators before allowed and licensed, from keeping alehouses, but a Certificate under the hands of the Inhabitants of Wilford was presented that one of the above Richard Cooke "was so well behaved and modest and governed his house without disorders or bad behaviour." He was allowed by the Court to continue his house.
On 14th July, 1617, a Certificate was read that both the Inhabitants of Lenton and the County near adjacent to it sustain great damage and detriment by the Keepers of Alehouses and tiplers in Lenton, who frequently under colour of harbouring honest travellers receive and harbour thieves, prostitutes, cut-purses and other persons of the worst kind, "And because Nottingham is a market town near adjacent and a place convenient for harboring travellers, there is no need for a superfluity of tipplers nor of any of them to lodge for the night and harbor any wayfarers." The Constables were ordered to prohibit all those who brew or keep alehouses or tippling houses in Lenton whether with or without licence, and from then those with licences were to relinquish same.
On 6th October, 1680, a Complaint was made of a disorderly alehouse to ye great disturbance of neighbours and the Constable of Caunton was ordered to suppress the Keeper thereof from brewing or selling of any more beare or ale.
There were a large number of Indictments and presentments against Brewers and alehouse keepers for offences "contrary to the tenor of license," such as the following:
For harbouring persons or permitting them to tipple in the Alehouse during prohibited hours, such as at night time or on the Sabbath "during time of prayer."
For allowing drinking and playing at cards and other unlawful games in the Alehouse, and bad behaviour.
For disorders and bad behaviour in the Alehouse, and for harboring lewde and uncivil company and gipsies in the house.
For drunkenness.
For receiving stolen goods, &c, &c.


Sky thank you for saying you would let me share your records that you have, you said you would send me a copy of Rebeccas Dad, that was very kind of you, thank you for thinking of me
 
 Sky look at these words below from the above words
 

" The Wilford Lane, near to Boots' Pleasaunce Grounds, was a choice spot." this place is near to the lands we talk of

Offline panished

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Re: Nottingham stopping ground-Smiths Field? Help
« Reply #46 on: Monday 02 September 19 19:34 BST (UK) »
Sky

Do not forget my old posts from a few yeares back, read again where lots of the Wilshers are burried


Re: Gipsy Dan Boswell
« Reply #185 on: Saturday 02 January 16 08:37 GMT (UK) »
Quote
 I would often go with my  Mother to pay respects to People at Wilford Hill, there are lots there
names like William, Joseph, Percy, Henry, Edward, James, Frederick, Maria ,Rebecca, Letty, and more those sorts of names
lots we new of, lots as come as a surprise to me, I'm as sure as sure can be thoe that there all related, and more to, same as those other cemetery's, they were just ordinary people living there own life in there own time, there were no fancy kings or great names known by others, no fancy big gravstones, not nothing at all much just People gone now to this life, but I will speak more of them and what I know another time, oral history,
there on the right side as you go in the main entrance, up that little winding path, i know this is true for i was there, i hope this is of help one day, some of there relatives will look, and they will find there way through my words, all those times long ago I would jump and skip along that path, seems so long ago now, my Mother had great love for the Dead, happy days,

most were born mid to late 1800s,I think there are more over at the northern bulwell cemetery,
but I was never there, I seen their names on records, I would say some could be right,

pluss on some records its not just the last name that can be spelled differently, where people have marriage records giving a Fathers name say George,
and yet they can not connect a George to an older Family that stands out as true, this is be course on records I have seen William be known as George William, then just William, so if you come across say a George don't be thinking that was the only name he went by,

you have to take no notice of what you think is the right way of researching, you are dealing with people far different from anyways you thought was possible

Offline kaziah

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Re: Nottingham stopping ground-Smiths Field? Help
« Reply #47 on: Tuesday 03 September 19 18:15 BST (UK) »
Hi,  Today I received the birth certificate for the daughter of George Smith bn 1868-1941 "Gypsy Smith" and Ellen Clayton.  Esmeralda Smith was born In a Van, Roberts Road, Leicester on 25 Feb 1905.  On the 1911 census she is down as Esperella - then I have lost all trace of her, but will keep on looking... Kx
Smith, Plumb, Booth, Slater, Purdy, Clayton, Loveridge
Gray, Parker, Elliott, Wright, Towle, Wesseldine, Margot's, Bacon, Blankley, Goodwin, Stafford.


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Re: Nottingham stopping ground-Smiths Field? Help
« Reply #48 on: Tuesday 03 September 19 20:31 BST (UK) »

Hi Kizi

Nice one, thats rearly interesting, would you write up the full history that you know of these Smiths on here, everyone is connected in some way, i love genealogy, its great, rearly good, no its brilliant, fanstastic, you to are doing rearly good, i am very proud of your great efforts, well done Lady, it as been a pleasure indeed to have such a fine aquaintance as your most beautifull self, indeed i am very lucky, but i will share the luck with you, we shall give Sky a third share, its only right, Sky sure as done massive amounts of research, of course i remember you saying on another thread that you said you would answer any question i ask if you new the answer, did you think i forgot, its just not the time yet, if you can tell of the Smiths of Georges i would be very grateful, plus the Claytons, are they the Gipsies from the Black Patch, they are the Clayton Smiths i have read much of, i have lots of storys of the Claytons but some i am not sure if they are the ones you talk of, they may just be locals, it does not matter which way, its all apart of the bigger story we all should look for, we should on our journey be educated to all that comes to us, everything counts, everyone counts, this is the right way of looking back in the past, this shows the past who we are in their future, the future ones will then learn from us when we are gone the right and proper way of going on, these few storys below are just people they are more than likley locals just living their life, its interesting tho, i learn everyday of my life that learning makes you a more fuller person


12 October 1883
  Derbyshire Advertiser and Journal
  Derbyshire 

Ellen Clayton, chair bottomer, was charged with stealing a fowl, value 2s., on the Ist of Oct., from in barn Hulland Ward. Her husband was also charged with the same offence, but had absconded.—The Bench committed the woman to gaol for month, with hard labour.


Wednesday 15 November 1882
  Derby Mercury
  Derbyshire, England

—Ellen Clayton and Frederick Clayton tramps, were charged with stealing a half sovereign, at Tickenhall, the property of John Orton, on the 3rd inst
 
Wednesday 03 March 1886
 Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald
  Derbyshire
  Relations at Loggerheads.—Matthew Clayton, grinder, of Short's Yard, pleaded guilty to assaulting Henry Booth, gardener, and Janet Clayton, of Church lane. Booth said he did not wish to press the charge against defendant and Mrs Clayton expressed a similar wish. -Defendant said he was very sorry for what occurred. On Saturday night he had heard a lot of family talk, and he wiped his brother-in-law over the mouth, and his sister-in-law flew at him with a poker, and he pushed her back by putting his against her stomach. —The magistrates discharged the defendant on payment of the costs, 15s.

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Re: Nottingham stopping ground-Smiths Field? Help
« Reply #49 on: Tuesday 03 September 19 20:50 BST (UK) »
look at this for great evidence, this is looking out at the church opposite the lands we talk of, that's the church in the map i put on in the link from a few posts back, opposite the lands where they all campt on,  Hawthorne street yeares later would be behind the artist painting this picture, look at the little brook stream flowing into the Trent, this is evidence of the old dykes that they made into drains in the storys i have found, that would be Smith farmland over the river i would say,maybe anyway, this is great evidence to back up everything yet found

Artist: Barber, Thomas - Title: The Trent at Wilford - Date: 1840 - Original Medium and Size: Oil on Canvas 48.9 x 62.2

https://www.nottinghamprints.co.uk/fine-art/landscapes/trent-wilford-1745521.html



and look at this  painting from the opposite side looking towards Nottingham there are the lands we talk of the Kings Meadow area, Hawthorne street, the artist this time would be on the land of the Smith Farmer, he may have had land over the river to, but these two paintings have great history clues that together with the old storys from the newspapers and the legal papers like census things and such show us a big picture is emerging of the past, look how the animals are going in and over the high pebble grounds in the river, this is what is mentions in the storys i found saying about how the animals could stray into another farmers land, history is great, the truth is there, you just have to want to know it

 View At Wilford, Nottingham, by Benjamin Shipman, ca 1830 27 x 39 in., oil on canvas

https://www.nottinghamprints.co.uk/nottingham-views/view-wilford-nottingham-benjamin-shipman-ca-5851617.html

Offline kaziah

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Re: Nottingham stopping ground-Smiths Field? Help
« Reply #50 on: Tuesday 03 September 19 20:56 BST (UK) »
I will write up George's story (What I know it) when I'm fresh and awake, I'll get my facts right then... - he is the son of John "Johnny 2 wives" Smith and his 1st co-wife Maria Smith, the other co-wife was her sister Carolina Smith.   Kx
Smith, Plumb, Booth, Slater, Purdy, Clayton, Loveridge
Gray, Parker, Elliott, Wright, Towle, Wesseldine, Margot's, Bacon, Blankley, Goodwin, Stafford.

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Re: Nottingham stopping ground-Smiths Field? Help
« Reply #51 on: Saturday 07 September 19 06:14 BST (UK) »
 Hi Sky & Kizi
Sky read all of this story about the history of Wilford Toll Bridge, first there was a ferry there going back hundreds of yeares, Gipsies must of used this as one of the ways into Nottingham, i have been looking for you to let you know, so you will start to think of Smiths field as more than a name, the bigger picture is now emerging of why the Gipsies over hundreds of yeares campt around these places, there must of been several such places that surrounded Nottingham, we found the one at Radford, now we are finding more and more the history of the South side of the City, reread all the posts that are done in this thread to, or check through them, combined with this latest post and photos you will work out yourself and see the bigger picture with colour, i am glad you put this post up it helped me to see, just when you think you have found something and then more information comes to light you realise you are but standing in a dark room trying to view the past and meet the People, one day they come to you and help you, they draw back the curtain that holds back the days of the past and they allow you see the night, thank you for putting up your post i have come to learn what i only thought i may know and still i know there will be much more to come


https://nottinghamhiddenhistoryteam.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/archaeology-along-the-tram-route-wilford/

this is the best set of photos i found to show you, you must look through all of them and get a feel for the history, look at the old signe on the Toll House saying of how much things cost like taking a horse and cart and such over the old bridge, i bet that old church Wilfreds knows some secrets and the Ferry Inn public house, evan though we have found lots i bet we know not much at all, i wander is Smith Field from the name of the old farmer or is there another answer, i will keep looking, they used to call it the half penny bridge from some of the writings i have been reading, this from the old tolls of the past times, but how mad is this, well i now rember it being called the penny bridge when i was small, well i am sure it was a penny not the half penny, i rember my Mother taking me across and telling how you had to pay the man in the toll bearth a penny, this as been a great time for me to learn all about the Wilshers and all the other People in these storys, thank you for starting your request, it as helped me to find understand learn and respect, well done

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wilford_Toll_Bridge

this below is the old painting of the ferry that was there before the toll bridge was built, by  John Holland 1831-1879- Wilford Ferry, Nottingham (The Cherry-Eatings)
 

https://www.nottinghamprints.co.uk/fine-art/landscapes/wilford-ferry-nottingham-the-cherry-eatings-1745547.html


 Sky
  this one will give you a feel for the location and distance of inner Nottingham back in the older times, just to the left is the old Trent Bridge, this is upstream about half a mile i would say from the old Toll Bridge and old Hawthorne Street, in this day everything is joined up by buildings and just one mass of everything, but in this old painting see the old Castle on the left on the high sanstone rock, and then to the right is the two old churchers well the big Church on the far right is St Marys where my Mother was taken as a child, when She died we took her back to the same Church, i think if i remember the Castle is the land of the Normans after the 1066 invation and the high ground of St Marys was the old Saxon lands, i think i got that right, St Marys as lots of history, Dan Boswells wife Sarah was taken there when She died, i tryed to find Her, it was stated there were three burriel grounds for graves but one was dug up and the bones reburried at Wilford if i remember so She may be there now, i think i saw records of Woodwards over the years at that Church to but i have found that history is full of names in every timescale, thats when the census reports and other legal records help, i do not know how to find thoes records, and i dont want to, i like this way of looking, keep up the good work you have done very well, i was just thinking to myself, maybe the Gipsies through many old yeares past down the old camping grounds through relatives telling of the history, and the truth could be that it was the Citys that came to them, what i meen is the Gipsies used the same old farms grounds lands or things like that for generations but the Towns and Citys expanded, through these storys we have found Gipsies have been on these Fields for hundreds of yeares, they used to be on the outside of the City, by the middle to late 1800s the City was knocking on their door, something to think of, it could be a clue

https://www.nottinghamprints.co.uk/fine-art/landscapes/nottinghamshire-south-george-lambert-style-of-4016485.html

in this one below you will see old Nottingham on the right, the river Trent to the left, now do you see the big hill to the South, well thats Wilford Hill, the low lands below this hill are in the middle known as  the Kings Meadows where Hawthorne street was and Kings Meadow Road, the farmers lands that the old Gipsies campt on are all these lands, in later yeares the City grew and now you cannot evan see Wilford Hill its all one mass of roads and buildings
https://www.nottinghamprints.co.uk/fine-art/landscapes/colwick-hill-nottingham-1745845.html

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Re: Nottingham stopping ground-Smiths Field? Help
« Reply #52 on: Saturday 07 September 19 20:33 BST (UK) »
 

Kizi

 i looked for you in Leicestershire, you said Georges farther was from that way and George to at some point, i have been trying to collect storys so you may link back through locations and names, you never know some thing may turn up, George Smith of Nottingham was around Hawthorne Street Kings Meadow Road, the land that is maybe Smiths Field, i hope you have learned from these few post i have more on the Smith Claytons from the Leicestershire way, in time i will put them on to see if they may help you, Vince is from the Smiths, he told me most came out of Northamptonshire and spread out, they must of first settled there hundreds of yeares ago and becourse there came to be so many some of them had to find new land







 Tuesday 04 October 1904
  Market Harborough Advertiser and Midland Mail
  Leicestershire

FORTUNE TELLER SENT TO PRISON. Hattie Smith, alias Emily Clayton, married, a hawker, of no fixed residence, was charged, at the County: Police Court, on Tuesday, with stealing  27s. 6d., belonging to Sarah Seaton, at Great Wigston, on March 30th ...


 
 Saturday 11 May 1889
  Leicester Chronicle
  Leicestershire


A fire broke ont in a gipsy camp at Merryhill between Handsworth and Smethwick, on Friday morning, and Carnathia Clayton, a girl aged five, was burned to death

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Re: Nottingham stopping ground-Smiths Field? Help
« Reply #53 on: Saturday 07 September 19 21:01 BST (UK) »
  Saturday 05 February 1887
 Leicester Chronicle
  Leicestershire

THE KING OF THE GIPSIES. When the gipsies were allowed to encamp in the lanes and waste grounds of Leicestershire and other counties, Absolom Smith was their recognised king they had their code of laws, and any infringement of them Absolom adjudicated upon, and his decision was final. Absolom Smith was a tall man,of dark complexion, black hair, with long curls on each side of his face. He generally wore a long blue coat (with large silver buttons thereon, with hislnitials engraven upon them), breeches, leggings, and silver-buckled shoes. The king of the gipsies was a good athlete, and was  especially a good runner and jumper. I heard an uncle say that he had seen him jump six yards at a stand jump. He could fiddle well by the ear, and used to play at country feasts. I have danced, with others to his fiddling at Scalford feast. One Whitsuntide. Tuesday I was in Melton Mowbray playclose, and the king was there. It appeared that a donkey stood on the fiddle of one of his sons and injured it. A little urchin (a grandson of the king) called out, Grand- pau ! grandpau ! the stupid ass has broken my father's fiddle. The king replied, Oh!if I had been there I would have slain him. One of Absolom's daughters, Beatta by name, was considered to be extremely handsome. I have heard it said that a fine portrait of her (taken in a red cloak) hung on the wall of an apartment in Belvoir Castle. Beatta had 24 children. On one occasion she was confined in the camp in Goadby-lane, and was frequently visited by Mrs . Norman, of Goadby Hall, and Mrs. Norman stood sponsor to the child, and it was named after her. Absolom died in 1826, when resurrectionists were very busy in robbing the graveyards of England of their recently interred dead. Absolom's grave was made secure and watched for some time. The following appeared in the obituary of the Leicester Chronicle of Saturday, February 18th1826 :— On Wednesday night, aged 60, Absolom Smith, better known in this neighbourhood as the King of the Gypsies , leaving behind him a wife and 13 children (to whom he is said to have left £100 each) and 54 grandchildren. He was attended in his last illness by Dr. Arnold and two surgeons at his 'camp' in Twyford -lane, and was  followed to his grave in Twyford Churchyard by a long retinue of his own tribe on Friday last. He was interred in his coat, the buttons on which were silver and marked ' A.S. Lest this circumstance should be a temptation to dis-turb  his body, his followers caused alternate layers of straw and timber to be put into the grave with