Author Topic: Tankard by William Tuite 1767 with arms  (Read 355 times)

Offline silverfan

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Tankard by William Tuite 1767 with arms
« on: Friday 24 May 19 23:37 BST (UK) »
Hello, this is my first post in this forum. Some weeks ago I got this mug with beautiful arms (or crest?) Does anybody know to what family it belongs?
Regards silverfan


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Offline MaecW

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Re: Tankard by William Tuite 1767 with arms
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 25 May 19 02:12 BST (UK) »
Welcome Silverfan.
For some reason the picture has not posted and, as the heading here says, this is not the right place to post queries. Can I suggest you repost to the Heraldry section : "Some special interests - Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms" where there are several enthusiasts who may be able to answer your question.
Kind regards,
Maec
Baron (of Blackburn), Chadwick (Oswaldtwistle), Watkins (Swansea), Jones (x3 Swansea), Colton (Shropshire), Knight (Shropshire/Montgomery) , Bullen (Norfolk), White (Dorset)

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Offline Skoosh

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Re: Tankard by William Tuite 1767 with arms
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 25 May 19 09:20 BST (UK) »
Is it church silver? mid 18th cent' by the style?

Skoosh.

Offline KGarrad

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Re: Tankard by William Tuite 1767 with arms
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 25 May 19 09:38 BST (UK) »
Quarter 2 is a cross crosslet.
Possibilities include: Christian (Ireland), Carroll (Ireland), Britton.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline MaecW

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Re: Tankard by William Tuite 1767 with arms
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 25 May 19 11:36 BST (UK) »
I'm not sure what is happening here, the picture appeared an hour or so back but has now gone again ! I must have gremlins in my system.  ;D

Anyway we have four quarters :
1. Three hearts
2. A cross-crosslet
3. Three nails
4. Some sort of device. Is it mechanical, a half wheel with a form of cross issuing from it ? or is it religious, a decorative form of a cross ?

The whole possibly has a religious feel to it. Could it relate to an institution rather than a person ?

I'd suggest that the key lies in identifying the item in quarter four, along with its owner, as it is a quite uncommon charge.
Any thoughts ?

Maec
Baron (of Blackburn), Chadwick (Oswaldtwistle), Watkins (Swansea), Jones (x3 Swansea), Colton (Shropshire), Knight (Shropshire/Montgomery) , Bullen (Norfolk), White (Dorset)

Offline silverfan

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Re: Tankard by William Tuite 1767 with arms
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 25 May 19 12:36 BST (UK) »
Thanks all for your input. I do not think it is church silver. I add a photo of the whole mug. The year letter and the catouche clearly say rococo. On another photo you see a crest (on flatware by Dru Drury 1725-1804)) also with a half wheel but a little different. There I regognize a sword. The flatware is said to come from a family called Muchall-Viebrook. Nearly all other pieces are marked with a fleur de lys, see photo. The oldest fork is marked Edinburgh 1791.
Family traditions are often wrong. Does somebody know for what families stands the fleur de lys. I know that there are probably some families. 





Offline KGarrad

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Re: Tankard by William Tuite 1767 with arms
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 25 May 19 13:34 BST (UK) »
Could the cross issuing from the half-wheel be described as a cross pommy?
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline silverfan

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Re: Tankard by William Tuite 1767 with arms
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 25 May 19 14:29 BST (UK) »
Cross Pommy in German "Apfelkreuz" when I believe in the internet translation is perhaps right for the tankard but not for the flatware. There I see a sword.
Regards silverfan

Offline MaecW

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Re: Tankard by William Tuite 1767 with arms
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 26 May 19 01:16 BST (UK) »
The pictures are still not showing up when using my usual browser but I've had a look at them using a different browser (MS Edge).

I agree that the item issuing from the half-wheel (?) looks like an Apfelkreuz on the tankard and like a sword on the flatware. Maybe they are meant to be the same but different engravers interpreted them differently, or they belonged to different branches of the same family.

I was wondering if the arms belong to a family in the German/Swiss/Netherlands area. The name Muchall-Viebrook suggests perhaps the latter and the Fleur-de-Lys might possibly indicate the area of modern Belgium then part of France.
All this is speculation, I am not well-acquainted with European heraldry. However I did find the following on-line reference (website : mistholme.com) which I quote in part:

"Particularly in German heraldry, we find examples of partial wheels:  a quarter-wheel, as in the arms of von Billick, or a half-wheel, as in the arms of Rusetzker [Siebmacher 73].  The orientation of the partial wheel (e.g., “dexter half of a wheel”, as in the illustration) must be specified in blazon."

As this was the only reference to half-wheels that I could find either on-line or in my own reference books, I am inclined towards a north European origin rather than British to these Arms.

Maec
Baron (of Blackburn), Chadwick (Oswaldtwistle), Watkins (Swansea), Jones (x3 Swansea), Colton (Shropshire), Knight (Shropshire/Montgomery) , Bullen (Norfolk), White (Dorset)