Piotr Idelt

[barryd]

He did quite well financially. Left a will and on English/Welsh Probates. Died Old Fletton, Peterborough, 4 Nov 1970. Left 3422 pounds.

[lissa2973]

TreeSpirit: Thank you, thank you...lots to sift through--excellent information! And it looks as though we have his mother's maiden name, which is amazing, too. I am going to review all of the links.

barryd: are wills of public record in Great Britain? Would be curious to know who he left his assets to, as this would be clue to some family.

[TreeSpirit]

I had been wondering about the rather suspicious rarity of the name Idelt, so I’d been keeping an eye out for variations and eventually found this marriage:

Konstantin Igli (born 1862) (father: Gottlieb , mother: Barbara Szymczak )
X 1887 Civil registry Gostyń
Marie Kendziora (born 1862)  (father: Stanislaus , mother: Hedwig Wawrzyniak )

And this fits very nicely with the following Idelt death:
Gostyń (Registry office) - death certificate, year 1901, [Księga zgonów]
Barbara Idelt (79 years)
spouse Gottlieb Idelt
Other people appearing in the document: Marianna Idelt geb. Kendziora

That adds another generation ...!!!

Of course, nothing beats the original documents, but they don't seem to be freely online available yet for this area. You can try some of the contact suggestions that were given for those births/deaths, but it seems that FS does have online films that are accessible via visit to a FHC. e.g. the Roman Catholic parish register of births, marriages and deaths for Punitz are here: https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/55434?availability=Family%20History%20Library. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to a birth register (urodzeń) listed for 1896, but maybe it is hidden somewhere?



And regarding English wills and probate... you can order them here: https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills . Piotr's seems to be only a probate and it is listed under 1971.

[TreeSpirit]

and just to really confuse you, here are more versions of the surname:

Probable marriage of Piotr's grandparents:
Protestant community Piaski (Gostyń) [Sandberg] entry 14 / 1854
Johann Gottlieb Liedel (28 years old) – (father: Gottlieb)
X Barbara Szymczak (31 years old) – (father: Andreas)

4 children:
#1
Gostyń (par. rzymskokatolicka) - death certificate, year 1857 , Liber baptisatorum, copulatorum, mortuorum
Antonina (3 years)
parents: Gottlieb Igel , Barbara Szymczonka
-
her birth? – probably out of wedlock:
Gostyń (par. rzymskokatolicka) - birth/baptism record, year 1854 , Liber baptisatorum, copulatorum, mortuorum
Anna ,
parents: Barbara Szymczonka
Other people appearing in the document:Lucas Szymczok, Catharina Kubionka)

#2
Gostyń (par. rzymskokatolicka) - birth/baptism record, year 1859 , Liber baptisatorum, copulatorum, mortuorum
Catharina , parents: Gotlib (?)igli, Barbara Szymczonka ,
Other people appearing in the document: Constantinus Dorczak - chrzestny, Agnes Dirkowska - chrzestna
Indexer notes: ur. 1 maja 1859 r.

#3 (Piotr's father)
Gostyń (par. rzymskokatolicka) - birth/baptism record, year 1862 , Duplikat urodzonych
Constantinus 
parents: Gottlieb Igli, Barbara
Other people appearing in the document: Adalbertus Kozłowski, Magdalena Wolniewicz

#4
Gostyń (par. rzymskokatolicka) - birth/baptism record, year 1865 , Duplikat urodzonych
Marianna Pelagia
parents: Gottlieb Liedelt, Barbara Schimschak ,
Other people appearing in the document: Andrzej Koprowiak, Wiktorya Matuaszczyk


Gottlieb's death with his 3 surviving children(I'd already given his wife Barbara's death):
Gostyń (par. rzymskokatolicka) - death certificate, year 1870 , Duplikat zmarłych
Gottlieb Liedilt alias Ill (40 years)
Other people appearing in the document:
Katarzyna - córka 10 lat
Kostanty - syn 7 lat
Pelagia - córka 3 lata
(Note: I think that he was born as Carl Gottlieb Leder)


And also another brother for Piotr:
Gostyń (Registry office) - birth record, year 1888, [Księga urodzeń]
Vincent
parents: Constantin Liedelt, Marianna Kendziora

[TreeSpirit]

I have found a source of images after all, although Piotr’s birth isn’t among them (yet):
http://poznan.ap.gov.pl/zasob-2/zasob-online/szukaj-w-archiwach/szukaj-w-archiwach-poznan/szukaj-w-archiwach-poznan-2/

some examples:
1862 birth Constantinus
Image 4 : https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/53/3304/0/1.1/49/str/1/1/15/7s85QBJf_PlVRoC0YyPhSQ/#tabSkany
direct download - https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/53/3304/0/1.1/49/skan/save/7s85QBJf_PlVRoC0YyPhSQ

1870 death Gottlieb
Image 4: https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/53/3304/0/5/75/str/1/1/15/7s85QBJf_PlVRoC0YyPhSQ/#tabSkany
Direct download: https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/53/3304/0/5/75/skan/save/7s85QBJf_PlVRoC0YyPhSQ

[lissa2973]

Another generation, indeed! And fragments, seemingly, of one before that, too. It's more than I ever imagined--now I have something to fill in my family tree (and a lot to keep me busy, too). I am going to cross-check some of the names you linked to under my DNA results to see if there might be any matches (a longshot, but you never know).


Judging from names alone, it seems a fair assumption that Peter's father's side was German. That might be some clue as to the family's involvement in the German military, I'm guessing, during WWI. I have a lot more to learn, but am going to read up on old Poznan and try to retrofit some of this into the larger story.

Once I hear back from the ITS, I will post anything that's of interest re: Peter/Piotr/Petrus (lol), since I feel like you've invested yourself in this mystery, as well, TreeSpirit. 

Thank you, again.

[TreeSpirit]

Sounds good … It will be interesting to discover whether this is right family as there are quite a number of Zawada’s out there. You'll be right once Gostyń gets a mention 

I’d wondered whether you’d be going down the DNA route. That is why I thought it would benefical to warn you about the many surname variations to avoid a rigid adhering to eg Idelt. You might be quite open-minded about such things, but I’ve experienced too many other people who weren’t. I’m not sure what has caused the name variations in this case … maybe they could not read and write or maybe it has something to do with German/Polish variations.
The first names don’t worry me as much as there can be some fairly obvious explanations: eg Piotr= Polish, Peter=German and Petrus=Latin. Note: Throughout the years I’ve seen many (Western European) RC baptisms that have the child’s name in a Latin version.

Good Luck.

PS Yes it should be possible to go back a bit further, but I decided to focus on those few generations for now so we could understand Piotr's (probable) background.

[lissa2973]

Yes, it's easy to see where Liedelt/Liedel/Liedilt could become Idelt, but Igli is a stumper, unless there is a phonetic nuance that's just not obvious to someone unfamiliar with the language.

But before I let you go, wondering if you can hazard any guesses as to his time in Belgium (he was there prior to outbreak of war, when Germany was supposedly attempting to respect Belgium's neutrality, and then during the war for long stretches). Perhaps this might give some insight into his political situation (some things in his employment history, coupled with German soldier in WWI+DP camp(s) seem contradictory?). And I'm prepared to hear anything, so you can be candid, if you have any thoughts or can try to put that into kind of historical context.

I know it's all just guessing at this point!

[TreeSpirit]

Unfortunately I haven’t been able to find anything for Piotr in Belgium but I’ll try to give my interpretations and ideas based on the document to make sure that we are on one line and – who knows - it might help you (or someone else here) with further research.

Timeline/Location:
Piotr had to give his last 10 years of residence and lists Charleroi in the Walloon province of Hainaut from 1937-1940. However, he states that he does a course there from 1926-1927, so I’d assume that he spent at least 15 years in Belgium. It might even be possible that stayed on there after he was wounded in 1918.
His job was in Couillet, a former municipality, but part of Charleroi since 1977.
-
I know that there are places that have online historic “almanaks’ with addresses of the inhabitants, but I haven’t been able to find any for Charleroi.


Type of Employment:
His activity is given as Bergmann Stigar/Steiger. The German word “bergmann” translates as miner (so does the French word “mineur”). The latter part had me stumped for a while. For a long time I thought it had something to do with stairs or scaffolding, but could not imagine a major course for this. Eventually  “overseer” popped up (i.e. Steiger is the same as the later “Vorarbeiter”).  Apparently Charleroi had a coal mining industry, so Piotr was most likely an overseer in a coal mine.
I could be totally wrong, but I suspect Belgium might have had a bit of a different relationship with Germany than eg France or England, so I'm wondering whether the need of labour was more important than nationality or WW1 history? And, remember that by 1919 Piotr would have been officially Polish, so this might have helped his employment opportunities.
-
The employer listed as “Mons-Fontain” seems to be “Charbonnage de Monceau Fontaine”. This company ceased to exist in 1980. (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charbonnage_de_Monceau_Fontaine). However, I’m wondering whether there are still employee archives somewhere in Charleroi/Hainaut/Belgium in a state or government site or maybe even a local university.


Marital Status:
The first paged mentions the Franch “divorcé“ and the German “geschieden”.  But where/when did Piotr get married? We won’t find anything online if he got married in Belgium as the online marriage records do not go further than 1915 although marriages are publicly available after 75 years (https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Belgium_Civil_Registration ).
-
I do not have any experience with those later “hard copy” marriage records (specifically the “Tables Decennales de marriages” i.e the 10 year tables) as I’m too far away for that kind of research. FS states “These records can only be viewed by special permission after writing to the municipal authorities of the municipality where the event occurred. A fee may be charged”. https://www.charleroi.be might be an option? Or, maybe the Belgium State Archives could help you (https://search.arch.be/en/ ). I do not know where marriage records for Couillet might be located when it was still an independent municipality. Maybe Charleroi has them.


FYI Finally something else:
Thomas Idelt is buried in Annoeullin, France and was part of a Pionier Mineur Kompanien (pioneer mining (tunnelling) company)
http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/2010/vl_1_westf_pio-bat_nr_7_Mineur_wk1.htm