Author Topic: Alice Maud Mitchell / Charles Burrows Norwood  (Read 5742 times)

Offline mckha489

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Re: Alice Maud Mitchell / Charles Burrows Norwood
« Reply #45 on: Saturday 03 August 19 22:48 BST (UK) »
Quote from: Dundee link=topic=814830.msg6761657#msg6761657 date=156186596
[quote
Then there was Cyril's brother Charles who was registered as Henry Charles also in Brentford district in 1891.  What happened to him?

Debra  :)

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW4Z-BLZ  Golf club maker
[/quote]

I found another thread that has this from 2011

Quote
My name is Graham Burrows from Durban South Africa. I know this thread is a couple of years old but I have been trying to find background information on my Grandfather Henry Charles Burrows and Google picked up the thread for me. He was a golf professional who immigrated to this country, probably in the late 1920's. I have always understood that his father was a Head Gardener in the UK somewhere but ground keeper sounds pretty good . We knew my Grandfather as Charles. He married Rosa Kathleen Coleman who died in the 1940's. He died ca 1962, and I would have guessed he was around 70 years old. He had three children, the eldest M*******, who I understand might still be alive in Australia, my father Robert Cyril (died 1974) and Joan (also deceased). Quite a lot of my family has gone back to the UK. My father was born in North Leyton (Essex) in 1916 (I have his birth certificate). A lot of this seems to fit in with what I have read in this thread, and he could possibly be the Charles b 1891 mentioned in your posting
.

https://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/54593-A-challenge/page3

Added, I’ve just read right to the end and see you have already found that thread, however I’ll leave this as it does tell us what happens to Henry Charles

Offline Prue Heron

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Re: Alice Maud Mitchell / Charles Burrows Norwood
« Reply #46 on: Saturday 03 August 19 23:05 BST (UK) »
Quote from: Dundee link=topic=814830.msg6761657#msg6761657 date=156186596
[quote
Then there was Cyril's brother Charles who was registered as Henry Charles also in Brentford district in 1891.  What happened to him?

Debra  :)

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW4Z-BLZ  Golf club maker

I found another thread that has this from 2011

Quote
My name is Graham Burrows from Durban South Africa. I know this thread is a couple of years old but I have been trying to find background information on my Grandfather Henry Charles Burrows and Google picked up the thread for me. He was a golf professional who immigrated to this country, probably in the late 1920's. I have always understood that his father was a Head Gardener in the UK somewhere but ground keeper sounds pretty good . We knew my Grandfather as Charles. He married Rosa Kathleen Coleman who died in the 1940's. He died ca 1962, and I would have guessed he was around 70 years old. He had three children, the eldest M*******, who I understand might still be alive in Australia, my father Robert Cyril (died 1974) and Joan (also deceased). Quite a lot of my family has gone back to the UK. My father was born in North Leyton (Essex) in 1916 (I have his birth certificate). A lot of this seems to fit in with what I have read in this thread, and he could possibly be the Charles b 1891 mentioned in your posting
.

https://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/54593-A-challenge/page3

Added, I’ve just read right to the end and see you have already found that thread, however I’ll leave this as it does tell us what happens to Henry Charles
[/quote]

Brilliant thanks... this is where we found the relative who did all the research but, as I said, gave up on that avenue because of the death location of Alice Mitchell but now I think this is definitely our family and reading this thread again...even more so.  Thanks for prompting me to revisit it.

Offline Prue Heron

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Re: Alice Maud Mitchell / Charles Burrows Norwood
« Reply #47 on: Saturday 03 August 19 23:42 BST (UK) »
This excerpt from the original Charles Burrows forum entry you wre talking about, clearly shows that Henry Charles was known as 'Charles'....    is he the same 'Charles Arthury Burrows' of 3 Addison Road who lived with Alice Maud Burrows, nee Mitchell... and where does the Greengrocer bit come from.... onwards and upwards!

Offline Prue Heron

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Re: Alice Maud Mitchell / Charles Burrows Norwood
« Reply #48 on: Sunday 04 August 19 20:45 BST (UK) »
Hoping everyone can read this.. just to give you an update.  I have contacted a relative of Cyril and Charles Burrows (pretty sure these are the right family... well certain really!).  They are going to provide a dna test which will show my new cousin Lynne's relationship to Cyril (should be her Gt Uncle) and Charles (should be her Granddad).  The latter may not be so as he may not be the Charles Burrows on the birth certificate and living at 3 Addlestone Road in South Norwood as a Grocer, with Alice Burrows (nee Mitchell).

I can imagine that you lovely researchers don't hold the initial information in your memory and will have forgotten most of this story but, just in case you can...!  I will keep you posted.  We wouldn't be at this stage without you.  Once we have determined Lynne's grandfather, we can find a link to mine (with a bit of luck!).  Thanks everyone.  Prue


Offline Prue Heron

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Re: Alice Maud Mitchell / Charles Burrows Norwood
« Reply #49 on: Thursday 12 September 19 16:06 BST (UK) »
Hoping everyone can read this.. just to give you an update.  I have contacted a relative of Cyril and Charles Burrows (pretty sure these are the right family... well certain really!).  They are going to provide a dna test which will show my new cousin Lynne's relationship to Cyril (should be her Gt Uncle) and Charles (should be her Granddad).  The latter may not be so as he may not be the Charles Burrows on the birth certificate and living at 3 Addlestone Road in South Norwood as a Grocer, with Alice Burrows (nee Mitchell).

I can imagine that you lovely researchers don't hold the initial information in your memory and will have forgotten most of this story but, just in case you can...!  I will keep you posted.  We wouldn't be at this stage without you.  Once we have determined Lynne's grandfather, we can find a link to mine (with a bit of luck!).  Thanks everyone.  Prue
To anyone who was so helpful to us earlier on - to update you, the Burrows family dna test came back recently and at 178 cms means that LB my newfound cousin, is highly unlikely to be related to the Burrows family.  (I have put another thread on the DNA forum which was very helpful with this).  A Mitchell brother married a Burrows sister and Alice Mitchell married Cyril Burrrows.  The dna test was given by a descendent of the M brother and B sister.   I did not come up on the match at all which we would have anticipated if I had any Burrows dna.  My new cousin has only 178 despite the double genes.  So we think we have confirmed the Alice Mitchell GrandMum (found,thanks to you on here!) -but Iris Ina's father is probably not a Burrows... And on we go. I hope this isn't too confusng as you are not 'living it'.  Will keep you posted.  Prue

Offline IgorStrav

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Re: Alice Maud Mitchell / Charles Burrows Norwood
« Reply #50 on: Thursday 24 October 19 14:34 BST (UK) »
I've been contacted by Prue - we have a DNA match! - so have joined in late to this thread.

It seems definite that the Burrows name under which Ina was registered was not connected to the Cyril Burrows family, if the DNA from their relatives doesn't match.

So perhaps the way to go is to focus the search on the Charles Arthur Burrows who WAS at the address, and - given the name isn't all that rare - try and pin down who he was?

Perhaps Alice Maud had a relationship with someone who - just coincidentally - was called Burrows, like her (ex) husband. 

Have we already covered this, in case I've missed it in reading this thread?

Added:  Yes, on re-reading I see that people have indeed been looking for another potential Burrows to match the general dealer at the birth address.   ::)
But I still think this might now be the way to go

Pay, Kent. 
Barham, Kent. 
Cork(e), Kent. 
Cooley, Kent.
Barwell, Rutland/Northants/Greenwich.
Cotterill, Derbys.
Van Steenhoven/Steenhoven/Hoven, Nord Brabant/Belgium/East London.
Kesneer Belgium/East London
Burton, East London.
Barlow, East London
Wayling, East London
Wade, Greenwich/Brightlingsea, Essex.
Thorpe, Brightlingsea, Essex

Offline prueheron

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Re: Alice Maud Mitchell / Charles Burrows Norwood - THE END OF THE STORY.
« Reply #51 on: Saturday 31 July 21 18:20 BST (UK) »
For anyone who remembers this story from a while back and particularly those who helped us track down Alice Mitchell who was the Grandmother of my new-found DNA cousin in NZ - I thought you deserved to hear the end of the story. We finally got there after 3 years.
Nutshell: My 70th birthday present of a DNA test, shows that my father is not my bio father.  I discover 2 close cousins - Lynne in NZ and Sharon in Dublin.
We know that Alice Mitchell (Lynne's Grandmother) lived in South Norwood with a daughter and had another daughter - Iris Ina (Lynne's Mum).  She is not forthcoming about Iris's Dad so we have no idea). The Birth Cert showed Mother as Alice 'Burrows' her ex-husband and father as Charles 'Burrows' )  If we could find out who CB was, it would probably lead to my father.  Rootschat did their best to help but met brick walls, as did we although they traced Alice Mitchell to a Devon family which proved right (by DNA test).

Roll forward about 2 years and we deduced from DNA records and statistics that Charles Burrows had lied about his name, assuming Alice's married name and he was, in fact, Charles George Massey.  He had been living in Ealing with his wife and 3 daughters but abandoned them after a huge row (newspaper cutting to support) and, we guessed, moved to South Norwood to a Grocer's Shop and lived with Alice Burrows (nee Mitchell) where Iris (Lynne's Mum) was born.

All good so far but we needed a son!!! Another year went by.  Then our wonderful DNA helper from FB discovered that Charles Massey's 3 girls all had him as father on their Birth Certificates and mother 'Marie O'Regan' - his deserted wife -  (maiden name)...; BUT that they had had a 4th child, a boy, Nevitt Massey.  For some reason or other, (oversight?) Marie O'Regan had put her first, widowed, name on his birth certificate.  So the certificate read Father, Charles George Massey, Mother formerly Marie Wren.  (A check proved that she had indeed been widowed young - husband Wren).  Great shouts of celebration from the new cousins!

We found that Nevitt (RIP) had married in Windsor and had 3 sons and they had moved to Canada.  I immediately found two and contacted one.  Neither knew anything of their father's history - the family was estranged.  One agreed to do a DNA test.  More agony - with Covid and Christmas slowing Ancestry down... the wait was long.  Finally, one morning, with all of us with our phones kept on, the shout went round.  The DNA posted positive!   I had 3 new half-brothers.  Lynne had found her Grandfather (as had I!) and our new Irish cousin was from our O'Regan Grandmother's line. 

There was loads more to come but it needs a book. Just to say that Nevitt was in Intelligence with the SOE, lost one eye and, somewhere along the way, met my Mum post war - a beautiful married mother of a 7 year old - and I was conceived. 

Hope that answers the question for anyone who remembers the story.  Thank you so much for helping us along the way.