Author Topic: Another pub license query  (Read 234 times)

Offline Claire64

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Another pub license query
« on: Tuesday 02 July 19 22:03 BST (UK) »
Yes I know, me again....honestly, you'd think pub licenses, being legal documents, would not cause me such a headache!  Ok, a man called George Grayson took over the King and Miller Inn at Deepcar in 1847.  Our local archives have a form dated 19th August 1852, in which he declares his intention to transfer the license at the next Sessions.  However, George died at the King and Miller in February 1852!  He was buried in the local church, and the entry says he lived at Miller's Inn, Deepcar.  I have double-checked all these dates.
Surely it wouldn't have been legal for someone else to sign the document?  He did not have a son called George (he was only 45 when he died and his oldest child was only 13). 
All ideas greatfully received!
Pearson (Bradwell Dby & Stocksbridge)
Donkersley
Crawshaw (Bradfield)
Evans (Bradwell Dby and Stocksbridge)
Crossley (Penistone)
Rogers (Nottinghamshire & Stocksbridge)
Bramall (Bradfield/Wadsley)
Walton (Hunshelf)

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Offline Milliepede

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Re: Another pub license query
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 02 July 19 22:07 BST (UK) »
Quote
Our local archives have a form dated 19th August 1852, in which he declares his intention to transfer the license at the next Sessions. 

What sort of form is it - does it have his actual signature on?  Can only think the date is wrong somewhere  :-\
Hinchliffe Huddersfield Wiltshire

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Offline Milliepede

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Re: Another pub license query
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 02 July 19 22:10 BST (UK) »
There are 2 George Grayson deaths in 1852 Wortley - 01/1852 and 10/1852.

Haven't checked the ages yet but could he be the latter one and have been alive in August?
Hinchliffe Huddersfield Wiltshire

Offline Claire64

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Re: Another pub license query
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 02 July 19 22:44 BST (UK) »
Yes the document is signed.
I'll have another look at the deaths tomorrow when I'm not so tired, but the parish register for February says he lived at the Miller's Inn (King n Miller). Thanks Millipede.
Pearson (Bradwell Dby & Stocksbridge)
Donkersley
Crawshaw (Bradfield)
Evans (Bradwell Dby and Stocksbridge)
Crossley (Penistone)
Rogers (Nottinghamshire & Stocksbridge)
Bramall (Bradfield/Wadsley)
Walton (Hunshelf)

Offline Milliepede

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Re: Another pub license query
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 03 July 19 11:52 BST (UK) »
No good sorry the latter one in 1852 was only 2 :(
Hinchliffe Huddersfield Wiltshire

Offline Claire64

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Re: Another pub license query
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 04 July 19 20:23 BST (UK) »
Well I have double checked everything, triple checked in fact, but can't come up with how a man who had died in February could sign a legal document in August!
Signatures attached for comparison; the vicar's writing of George's name on the marriage certificate, George's signature on his marriage cert (it does not say he made his mark, his wife did, though the vicar's writing and George's look pretty similar) and George's signature on the document of August.
I've been trying to "think outside the box" but I am getting nowhere.  There's nothing in the newspapers either.  The burial in February must be him because it says he died at the inn where he was living and intending to transfer the license.
Pearson (Bradwell Dby & Stocksbridge)
Donkersley
Crawshaw (Bradfield)
Evans (Bradwell Dby and Stocksbridge)
Crossley (Penistone)
Rogers (Nottinghamshire & Stocksbridge)
Bramall (Bradfield/Wadsley)
Walton (Hunshelf)

Offline Greensleeves

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Re: Another pub license query
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 04 July 19 20:40 BST (UK) »
When I worked in solicitors' offices back in the 1960s/70s it was not unusual for a document to be produced, and the person asked to sign it and leave it undated.    Once the signature was on the document - could be the transfer of a licence, a conveyance, a lease, for example - the document would be filed ready for use.  So when appropriate (for example with conveyancing, when the other side was ready to exchange contracts and complete) the date would then be added to the document.  This was a common practice with lawyers, and for all I know might still be.  And of course this could account for George's signature appearing on a document dated after his death.  The likelihood would be that everyone decided it would be easier just to put the document before the Justices for transfer.  Indeed they might even have been informed that he signed the document prior to his death, thus signifying his wishes.
Suffolk: Pearl(e),  Garnham, Southgate, Blo(o)mfield,Grimwood/Grimwade,Josselyn/Gosling
Durham/Yorkshire: Sedgwick/Sidgwick, Shadforth
Ireland: Davis
Norway: Torreson/Torsen/Torrison
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Claire64

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Re: Another pub license query
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 04 July 19 20:45 BST (UK) »
Well, that makes sense!  I was thinking it would be illegal to do something like that so thanks for the information.  It does seem likely that this is what happened. Thank you!
Pearson (Bradwell Dby & Stocksbridge)
Donkersley
Crawshaw (Bradfield)
Evans (Bradwell Dby and Stocksbridge)
Crossley (Penistone)
Rogers (Nottinghamshire & Stocksbridge)
Bramall (Bradfield/Wadsley)
Walton (Hunshelf)

Offline Greensleeves

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Re: Another pub license query
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 04 July 19 23:17 BST (UK) »
I am assuming that this is what happened and it would make sense considered in the light of legal practice in the 20th century.  So I do think that's what happened and as they already had his signature, they added the appropriate date of the hearing.  It has always been perfectly acceptable for someone to sign a document in advance with the date added in another hand at the appropriate time.  I can remember when buying property within living memory, I would be asked to sign all the documents at an early stage but  - and this was always put in capital letters  -  NOT DATE THEM.  So things probably haven't changed!

Kind regards
GS
Suffolk: Pearl(e),  Garnham, Southgate, Blo(o)mfield,Grimwood/Grimwade,Josselyn/Gosling
Durham/Yorkshire: Sedgwick/Sidgwick, Shadforth
Ireland: Davis
Norway: Torreson/Torsen/Torrison
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk