Author Topic: Trying to solve a mystery  (Read 1054 times)

Offline Deb Clark Rennie

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
    • View Profile
Trying to solve a mystery
« on: Saturday 06 July 19 08:40 BST (UK) »
Iím hoping maybe some fresh eyes on this might help me solve a family mystery.

My paternal Great Grandparents were both illegitimate and therefore we donít know who their fathers were.  My dad, myself and several of dads cousins have all done DNA in the hopes someone might pop up as a potential ancestor.

We all have a match to a lady called Dianne and Iíve been in touch with her daughter for some time now as she managers her mothers DNA.  Dianne matches to all of us only we canít work out how so we feel this is where one of our missing ancestors might be only trouble is I think Dianneís grandfather is also illegitimate and Dianneís daughter recently found some documents her mother had which confirms this I believe, so if I can work out more of who Dianneís grandfather is it might help solve the mystery.

The only thing our family and Dianneís seem to have in common is a military family and India.  My Great Grandmother Daisy Wade was the illegitimate daughter of Isabella Wade she was born in Maida Vale London in 1890 the address on her birth certificate is where her great uncle resided and where Isabella was sent during her pregnancy.  Isabella was born in India to Frederick and Harriet Wade ... Frederick being a colour sergeant with the 60th Royal Rifles. We donít know if Daisy knew her fatherís identity or not but when asked she said he was a soldier or she mentions a connection with India.

Dianneís Grandfather was Alfred Saunders Francis and he married Ellen Woolner in 1898 in India he was with the Army Ordinance but died in India just after the birth of his son Albert Saunders Francis (Dianneís father) in 1900 problem is I canít find any surviving military records that give us any clues to Alfred, on his marriage to Ellen he gives father as Albert Francis which I donít think is true.  My thoughts were he was the illegitimate son of Eliza Francis born 1868 in Leiden and this is the birth record Dianne had among the papers (no father listed)she has along with a death certificate for a Felix Francis.  At first I though oh maybe Felix is Elizaís father but I found him on the census and according to his will he was unmarried and had no children.  I also believe Eliza had a second son born in 1867 called Alfred Saunders Francis and I have his baptism record.  Iíve looked and looked at this and I can not find Eliza and her boys on any census records so Iím starting to wonder if perhaps she lied about her surname.  What I also noticed was on the 1871 census record for Felix Francis in Colchester Essex is just up from him as a cook is an Elizabeth Saunders ... so my head started to wonder if she was the boys mother and gave her name as Francis so her boys would have a surname of their potential father.  Only thing is where are the boys in 1871 I canít find either of them. 

I know it all sounds rather confusing but I canít work out where these boys are or for sure who Eliza Francis is if indeed she is Eliza Francis ... if I can figure this out it might help Dianne and I work out how we are related.  Originally I thought her grandfather could be Daisyís dad but I saw a DNA genealogist and she felt it wasnít quite enough DNA shared so could be a sibling or another relative close to her grandfather we are looking for.   I made a Francis family tree so I could explore all the possibilities which is on ancestry as well as my own. 

I just need some fresh eyes to see who Eliza Francis is how she might be attached to Felix Francis and where were they during the census.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Deb

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline PaulineJ

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,511
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to solve a mystery
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 06 July 19 08:48 BST (UK) »
I'll try to cut down & date-order this. I'll modify as I go.
YOUR Family.

WADE, DAISY  ISABEL     -  1890  D Quarter in MARYLEBONE  Volume 01A  Page 555
Her mum being Isabella Wade

Is this Isabella in 1881 ? (Kingston, Surrey)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q277-YG6B

WADE, CHARLES  EDWIN     EDWEN  1874  D Quarter in KINGSTON  Volume 02A  Page 279
WADE, ALICE               EDWEN  1874  D Quarter in KINGSTON  Volume 02A  Page 279
WADE, WILLIAM  HENRY     EDWIN  1876  D/Qtr in KINGSTON   Volume 02A  Page 312


Dianne's family:
Marriage 18 May 1898   @ Peshawar, Bengal, India
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGJT-B8X
Ellen's re-marriage in 1902.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGJ6-NB7?from=lynx1UIV8&treeref=MH7V-VJ3
Ellen (Maria) Woolner's baptism:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG8L-H45?from=lynx1UIV8&treeref=MH7V-VJ3

" My thoughts were he (Alfred Saunders Francis)  was the illegitimate son of Eliza Francis born 1868 in Leiden (In the Netherlands)? and this is the birth record Dianne had among the papers (no father listed) she has along with a death certificate for a Felix Francis (any age/date/place on that)? "

Pauline

All census look up transcriptions are Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
======================================
We are not a search engine. We are human beings.

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline Deb Clark Rennie

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to solve a mystery
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 06 July 19 08:51 BST (UK) »
Thank you ... I tried uploading the certificates for Alfred and Felix Francis but they are too large

Offline KGarrad

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 22,537
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to solve a mystery
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 06 July 19 08:57 BST (UK) »
1. You should never post copies of complete certificates! Mainly due to Copyright Law.
It's also against RootsChat's guidelines for posting.
So, take a snippet of the relevant information (I use the Windows Snipping Tool) and post that.

2. Re-size your image if it's too large.
I use IrfanView for photos and images. I can resize to 50%, or 20%, or whatever, to get a manageable size.

P.S. Other software may be available ;D
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline Deb Clark Rennie

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to solve a mystery
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 06 July 19 08:59 BST (UK) »
Tha is for the tip I only have an iPad so am trying to figure a way to do that

Offline PaulineJ

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,511
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to solve a mystery
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 06 July 19 08:59 BST (UK) »
Unless you are having trouble deciphering, then a transcription is easier to work from.
All census look up transcriptions are Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
======================================
We are not a search engine. We are human beings.

Offline Deb Clark Rennie

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to solve a mystery
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 06 July 19 09:10 BST (UK) »
I'll try to cut down & date-order this. I'll modify as I go.
YOUR Family.

WADE, DAISY  ISABEL     -  1890  D Quarter in MARYLEBONE  Volume 01A  Page 555
Her mum being Isabella Wade

Is this Isabella in 1881 ? (Kingston, Surrey)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q277-YG6B

WADE, CHARLES  EDWIN     EDWEN  1874  D Quarter in KINGSTON  Volume 02A  Page 279
WADE, ALICE               EDWEN  1874  D Quarter in KINGSTON  Volume 02A  Page 279
WADE, WILLIAM  HENRY     EDWIN  1876  D/Qtr in KINGSTON   Volume 02A  Page 312


Dianne's family:
Marriage 18 May 1898   @ Peshawar, Bengal, India
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGJT-B8X


Yes this is the right family ... Daisy was mostly raised by her grandparents.

Dianneís father was born in 1899 in Madras son of Alfred Saunders Francis and Ellen Woolner.  Our DNA match to Dianne is not via Woolner side and Dianne does not match to the Wades  it she matches to all of Daisyís descendants ... Daisyís husband Ted Clark was also illegitimate but heís from Rodborough and has no India connection that I know of so I tend to sway more towards Daisyís potential fatherís side.

Offline KGarrad

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 22,537
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to solve a mystery
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 06 July 19 09:14 BST (UK) »
Tha is for the tip I only have an iPad so am trying to figure a way to do that

ADDED: 3. Never use an iPad! ;D ;D ;D

(I don't own/use any Apple products! ;))
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline Mckha489

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,469
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Trying to solve a mystery
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 06 July 19 09:18 BST (UK) »
Quote
" My thoughts were he (Alfred Saunders Francis)  was the illegitimate son of Eliza Francis born 1868 in Leiden (In the Netherlands)? and this is the birth record Dianne had among the papers (no father listed) she has along with a death certificate for a Felix Francis (any age/date/place on that)? "

FRANCIS, ALFRED  SANDERS     - 
GRO Reference: 1868  J Quarter in LEXDEN & WINSTREE UNION  Volume 04A  Page 314
 
currently concentrating on NUTCHER & MARSHALL families, Hampshire.
and family of Thomas ANDERSON a Tailor of Perth, Scotland