Author Topic: Another signature comparison - William SMALMAN.  (Read 477 times)

Offline M_ONeill

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Another signature comparison - William SMALMAN.
« on: Sunday 07 July 19 18:36 BST (UK) »
First of all, thanks everyone who helped out on my last thread comparing two signatures to find out if they're the same man. It was very helpful!

Well I have another example here I could use feedback on, two signatures for 'William Smalman', the first as Church Warden of Monkhopton in 1754 and the second on the marriage record of a Thomas Smallman and Mary Smalman. I suspect that they belong to the same man but I'd like to hear your opinions.

Both examples attached.

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Offline goldie61

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Re: Another signature comparison - William SMALMAN.
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 07 July 19 22:40 BST (UK) »
Hmm. Tricky one.

Some similarities, but also some differences.
The capital "W" for William is formed differently, although they do both have a 'loop' at the start of them.
The capital "S" is the same.
Obviously one is "Wm" and one "William", but I have some, also, William, where sometimes he is "Wm" and sometimes "William", so can't use that is a deciding factor.

The "l" in "Smalman" is formed the same, but all the other letters, "a", "m" and "n"s are formed differently . The minims (the vertical stokes of the letters), are much more distinctly formed in the second example than the first.

I'd be very cautious to say conclusively they are the same person writing them.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

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Offline Treetotal

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Re: Another signature comparison - William SMALMAN.
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 07 July 19 22:46 BST (UK) »
I have my doubts, agree with Goldie about being cautious.
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Offline M_ONeill

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Re: Another signature comparison - William SMALMAN.
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 07 July 19 23:07 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the replies, goldie, Treetotal!

Yes, there are definitely more differences than in the last thread I posted, for Thomas Smallman. Though even discovering it being a different person would be a help to me; I'm trying to reconstruct the Smallman part of my tree and there's a lot of them running round this part of Shropshire!

The signature I suspect may be linked to my tree is the latter one (1761), it appears on the marriage record of Thomas Smallman and Margaret Mary Smalman (sic), who I believe are my 5x great grandparents. I think that William may be a relation of one or other of the couple, though I can't be sure which due to the shared name! I'm leaning towards thinking he may be related to Margaret due to a) the spelling and b) Her signature being actually more similar to William's than the one in 1754!


Online Ruskie

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Re: Another signature comparison - William SMALMAN.
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 07 July 19 23:12 BST (UK) »
I agree that there may be too many differences to say the signatures are from the same hand.

Perhaps the similarities in formation of letters are due to how writing was taught rather than these being written by the same William.

Offline goldie61

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Re: Another signature comparison - William SMALMAN.
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 07 July 19 23:53 BST (UK) »
Yes, Mary's signature is much more like the second one of William you posted.
As Ruskie says, that may be because she was taught by the same person.
For her to be able to write in the mid 1700s is pretty impressive.
How did she get some education?
There's always the possibility she was taught by her father I guess!
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline M_ONeill

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Re: Another signature comparison - William SMALMAN.
« Reply #6 on: Monday 08 July 19 07:04 BST (UK) »
Itís a really interesting point about Mary Smalman having an education. I suspect that this group of Smalmans may be a little further up on the social scale than the rest of my tree (not sure how high, my guess is yeoman farmers), but I donít know whether that would translate into more education for daughters, at least not in reading and writing.

Iíve just found a record for a 1762 marriage just across the parish boundary in Ditton Priors between a William Smalman and a Susannah Holland. The signature makes me think it may be the same man. If it is, then the date of the wedding makes me think the relation to Mary may be that of a brother rather than a father.

Offline goldie61

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Re: Another signature comparison - William SMALMAN.
« Reply #7 on: Monday 08 July 19 09:18 BST (UK) »
This looks very much like the second signature you posted initially.
Even down to a distinctive little curl on the final upstroke at the end of his capital "W'.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline M_ONeill

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Re: Another signature comparison - William SMALMAN.
« Reply #8 on: Monday 08 July 19 13:56 BST (UK) »
Hmm, I'm coming to realise that this may complicate things with regard to my family tree. The two couples, Thomas/Mary and William/Susannah get married at roughly the same time and then proceed to have sets of children with almost identical names!

As I had linked my 4x great grandmother Mary Smallman into Thomas' family based on established links with two of her named sisters (Ann and Sarah) it's now possible that my confirmed ancestor Mary is actually the daughter of William and not Thomas.

I still think that Thomas has the edge as the likely candidate because a) He's living in Monkhopton, which was the younger Mary Smallman's residence at the time of her marriage, and b) Sarah the daughter of William would only have been 13 at the time of her marriage by license in Much Wenlock in 1795. I would discount that idea... except for the fact that she is the only one of the sisters who can't sign her name on her marriage record...

This is going to be one hell of a tangle to comb through!  ;D