Possibility of half shared G Grandparent

[Deb Clark Rennie]

Just wanting some opinions on a question I had asked of a DNA genealogist some time ago and although it wasn’t totally discounted I put it on the probably not basket however with more of my dads cousins also contributing DNA I’m starting to wonder again.

My Paternal Great Grandparents were both illegitimate so we have a gap in our family tree. My dad before he passed away did DNA to try help solve the mystery which is possible we never will.  However one match keeps popping up to our family and the only connection we can find is a link to the military and India.  I’ve recently had some help on this in another post.  The problem being this person also seems to have an illegitimate grandparent so we’ve been stuck.  Her grandfather is of the same age as my dads G Grandmother and he was a soldier and also spent time in India which is where dads Great Grandmother was born as the daughter of a soldier.   

It was suggested the match with this lady is probably a generation back but as we can’t determine her grandfathers parentage we are just stuck waiting in the hope another match pops up joining up the dots.  I thought it was possible maybe this mans brother may have been the father of my dads grandmother but it now seems he died in infancy so back to square one.  So I’m wanting opinions on the possibility of going back to this man being dads great grandfather,  I compared dads and his cousins DNA amount of shared CM and dad and his cousins amount of shared CM with a known full 2 nd once removed cousin and these were the results.  So I’m wanting to know if the results for dad and his cousins to Dianne might be possible that Dianne’s grandfather might be dad and cousins G Grandfather?  Or am I still looking at a generation back hope I’m making sense.

Dianne and shared DNA with dad and his cousins

SM 74 across 4 segments
NC 68 across 4
MC 51 across 4
MC 33 across 3

John and shared DNA with dad and cousins (this is known full 2nd cousin once removed)

MC 185 across 8
MC 135 across 9
NC 61 across 7
SM 53 across 5

Regards
Deb

[sugarfizzle]

Not sure I fully understand you (not unusual for me these days), but would like to help, if I can.

John is your father's known second cousin once removed?
And who is your father below - MC 185 or MC 135? I am assuming 185.
And does John share DNA with Dianne?

You are asking if Dianne's grandfather could be your father and John's great grandfather, i.e. first cousins once removed to your father.

Depending upon who is who between MC, MC, NC and SM, I think it unlikely that first cousins once removed would share as little as 74 cMs or 68 cMs, so it will be at least the generation before that, I think.

If you could clarify I might come up with a different answer.

Regards Margaret

[Deb Clark Rennie]

Thanks Margaret ... my dad is NC, John doesn’t share DNA with Dianne

John’s grandmother and dads Great Grandmother were full sisters.  Dads Great Grandmother Isabella Wade had Daisy Wade dads Grandmother.  We don’t know who Daisy’s father was.

Dianne’s grandfather Alfred Saunders Francis is her mystery man it appears he is illegitimate child of Eliza Francis or Saunders she’s a mystery as well.  I made a Francis family tree to see if I could work out our connection.  So Dianne doesn’t match to the Wades or the Clarks as my Great Grandfather Daisy’s husband is also illegitimate.  So I suspect mine, my dads and all of dads cousins and their offspring that match to Dianne must be via one of or missing father’s of Ted or Daisy.  Dianne herself has very few matches higher than our family her daughter is also also trying to piece who her Great Grandfather was.  As he only had one legitimate child before his early death it’s made it hard for all of us to work to out.  I posted on a different part of rootschat on the weekend to try work out Dianne’s side for her too.

So we know we are related but how remains a mystery.  There just seemed to be such a variation between dad and his cousins and how much DNA was shared with Dianne and I wondered seeing as it’s only a half shared Great Grandparent for dad and his cousins were those amounts enough or definitely not.

Still not sure I’ve explained that well 
Deb

[sugarfizzle]

Do you know who MC, MC, and SM are?

Regards Margaret

Modified
Sorry, MC, MC and SM are your father's cousins.

Out at the moment, I'll put my thinking cap on when I get back.

Margaret

[Deb Clark Rennie]

Oh yes sorry they are  my dads cousins their fathers were brothers to my dads dad.  I also share 65cm across 3 segments with Dianne.

[Deb Clark Rennie]

So all descend from Ted and Daisy.  And all march to Dianne just can’t work our how.

[sugarfizzle]

As far as I can see, if John and Dianne do not match at all, even below 20 cMs if at Ancestry), John's results don't come into the equation of how you and your father might match with Dianne.

Concentrate on your father's and his cousin's match with Dianne.

All fairly small matches in DNA terms, none of them would appear to indicate a fairly close match.

SM 74 across 4 segments
NC 68 across 4 (father)
MC 51 across 4
MC 33 across 3


At DNA painter, 74 cMs comes up with -

30.28% 3C Half 2C1R 2C2R Half 1C3R 30.09% Half 3C 3C1R Half 2C2R 2C3R 20.56% Half 2C 2C1R Half 1C2R 1C3R 13.30% 4C Half 3C1R 3C2R
3.49% 3C3R † 5C2R † 5C3R † 6C1R † 7C † 7C1R † 8C † 6C 5C 6C2R 4C1R 5C1R Half 3C2R 4C2R 4C3R
2.29% Half GG-Aunt / Uncle 2C Half 1C1R 1C2R Half GG-Niece / Nephew

I'd be inclined to put it on the back burner a little longer, wait for further matches.  Should be possible to get there one day!

Regards Margaret

[Deb Clark Rennie]

Thanks Margaret I think I just used John as his DNA to my dad NC didn’t seem much different to what dad shared with Dianne so was just using him as an example ... but you are right I feel sure if we can ever figure it out it will answer both Dianne and my question as to the missing men in our family.  It’s so frustrating not knowing ... fingers crossed one day a match will pop up.  We do have other shared matches ... not many but they either have no tree a private tree or 3 people in it and none reply when I’ve messaged.

Blessings
Deb