Author Topic: Army records lookup at The national Archive please - will pay reasonable fee  (Read 583 times)

Offline MaxD

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Re: Army records lookup at The national Archive please - will pay reasonable fee
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 09 July 19 19:26 BST (UK) »
Elly

Travel abroad does seem a possibility.  I would hate you to waste your money as I find it difficult to know what records you have been advised to investigate (have investigated). There are precious few military records of that time that, if they are at Kew, are not also on line.http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-soldiers-up-to-1913/

MaxD
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Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

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Offline EllyReid

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Re: Army records lookup at The national Archive please - will pay reasonable fee
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 09 July 19 20:23 BST (UK) »
Hi

thank you for looking these up. I have already done so and the Australia one is John Taylor Duggleby. I have full info on him.

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Offline EllyReid

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Re: Army records lookup at The national Archive please - will pay reasonable fee
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 09 July 19 20:31 BST (UK) »
Hello max

thank you for the advice I have extensive information re overseas travelling Dugglebys including those transported to Australia, amongst early settlers in SA, USA, Mexico, India, Canada.

I have been advised this by a researcher who is very experienced in military records

According to the Nafziger Orders of Battle Collection finding aid (free online), as at 2 April 1881 there were two regiments stationed in Maidstone.
Prior to July 1881, Maidstone was the 46th Training Depot that trained recruits for the 50th (Queen’s Own) Regiment of Foot and the 97th (Earl of Ulster’s) Regiment of Foot. From July 1881 the regiments were merged to become the 1st & 2nd Battalions respectively of the Queen’s Own Royal West Kent Regiment and the 46th Training Depot was renamed the 50th Regimental District.

Rather than already being a trained soldier, at 21 in 1881 and being at the Depot, Thomas is likely to have recently enlisted and was undergoing training prior to posting to a line battalion. So following on from my previous post about the movements of the main body of the 50th & 97th Regiments of Foot and them being re-named as above, if he continued to serve and died in service much later, it isn’t surprising you cannot trace him after 1881.

Although by 1881 soldiers attested for a short service enlistment of 12yrs (typically 7yrs with the colours, with 5 with the army reserve, some signed on for a 2nd period so it was possible for a soldier to serve over 20yrs and even if he died in last few months of service his pension died with him and no record would be preserved, so if he didn’t leave the army before 1883, then theoretically you could be looking for death in service between 1882-1900. I found nothing in the GRO Indexes to various Overseas Deaths (or a Duggleby child’s birth in case he married abroad), and as most places he served were under British control and by 1882 they would have their own registration system, so any death would be recorded in the registration system for that country, e.g. if he died in India any record should be in the India Office collection at the British Library in London or if in Malta or Ireland any record will be their BMD records.

For at least part of his service it should be possible to trace him through battalion Muster Books and Pay Lists and although details are missing, if he became non-effective, sick, wounded, transferred, deserted or died in service he would appear in regimental/battalion casualty returns.
Casualty returns themselves don’t appear to have survived but there is an Index to casualty returns for both (catalogued under original regimental names) in the National Archives, Kew, unfortunately they are not online and I have no idea how complete they are.

WO 25/3394 Index to Casualty Returns: 50 Foot; circa 1850-1910
WO 25/3445 Index to Casualty Returns: 97 Foot; circa 1850-1910

Muster Books and Pay lists for the Depot only exist from 1882 to 1884 so may not include Thomas as basic training would normally only last a month or two. For the Regiments/battalions Musters of interest only exist up to 1888; all are in document series WO 16 War Office: Muster Books and Pay Lists, sub-series Infantry; sub-series 50th Foot, 97th Foot and Royal West Kent Regiment; again none are online.

WO 16/1810 Depot (West Kent) 1882-1884

WO 16/1802 50th Foot 01 January 1880 - 31 December 1882

WO 16/2054 97th Foot 01 January 1880 - 31 December 1882
WO 16/2055 97th Foot 01 January 1880 - 31 December 1882

Other than perhaps one those should labelled “Detachment”, I’ve no idea why the dates are duplicated.

Unless he was found not likely to become an efficient soldier or left the depot for some other reason, then he should appear in one of the above after April 1881. From then it’s a case of following the trail on through the dates.

WO 16/1803 1st Battalion West Kent Regiment, 01 January 1882 - 31 December 1884
WO 16/1804 1st Battalion West Kent Regiment Detachment, 01 January 1883 - 31 December 1884
WO 16/1805 1st Battalion West Kent Regiment, 01 January 1884 - 31 December 1886
WO 16/1806 1st Battalion West Kent Regiment, 01 January 1886 - 31 December 1888

WO 16/1807 2nd Battalion West Kent Regiment, 01 January 1882 - 31 December 1884
WO 16/1808 2nd Battalion West Kent Regiment, 01 January 1884 - 31 December 1886
WO 16/1809 2nd Battalion West Kent Regiment, 01 January 1886 - 31 December 1888

If you cannot get to Kew in person you would need to employ a researcher and for checking any of the above they would charge an hourly rate, but for someone to check the early books and then those the relevant battalion from there to Dec 1888 at the latest shouldn’t take someone who regularly attends Kew more than two hours.

The National Archives web site lists several via http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records%5Cdefault.htm > paying for research, you can trawl through those or in you use your web browser to search for – military research on line – you should quickly locate one who specialises in British military research and is listed on the NA’s site. Whatever you decide give them the above references to start with and ask for an estimate for checking them.


Offline MaxD

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Re: Army records lookup at The national Archive please - will pay reasonable fee
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 09 July 19 20:49 BST (UK) »
Nothing (much) wrong with what you have been told there.  The query
WO 16/2054 97th Foot 01 January 1880 - 31 December 1882
WO 16/2055 97th Foot 01 January 1880 - 31 December 1882 other than perhaps one those should labelled “Detachment”, I’ve no idea why the dates are duplicated.
is easily explained, 2054 is 1879, 2055 is 1880.

You might like to ask your source which ones of the recommended possibilities will show the man's place and date of birth.  I submit the answer should be - none. So you may find a Thomas or a John but is he yours?

Good luck, do let us know how it goes.

MaxD
Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline Flemming

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Re: Army records lookup at The national Archive please - will pay reasonable fee
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 09 July 19 22:17 BST (UK) »
Hello Elly, this is a long shot, and you've probably covered it anyway in the last 30 years  :o ;) but do you have the marriage certificates/images for the siblings of John/Thomas - might he be a witness on one of them? If so, it would give you a time and location after 1881.

Frederick William was married Q1 1885 in Frindsbury All Saints (RD Strood); and Lucy Ann was married Q1 1892 in Gillingham St Mary Magdalene (RD Medway). If you haven't got these, someone on the Kent board may do a look-up for you.

Offline rosie99

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Re: Army records lookup at The national Archive please - will pay reasonable fee
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 10 July 19 07:47 BST (UK) »

Frederick William was married Q1 1885 in Frindsbury All Saints (RD Strood); and Lucy Ann was married Q1 1892 in Gillingham St Mary Magdalene (RD Medway). If you haven't got these, someone on the Kent board may do a look-up for you.

CityArk has parish registers you can browse for these churches
https://cityark.medway.gov.uk/
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Offline EllyReid

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Re: Army records lookup at The national Archive please - will pay reasonable fee
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 10 July 19 10:27 BST (UK) »
Have marriage certificates for brother & sister and John Thomas is not named on either of them.

bu thank you all for your help and advice.

NOW! anyone willing to do a couple of hours work at TNA please?

Offline Flemming

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Re: Army records lookup at The national Archive please - will pay reasonable fee
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday 10 July 19 10:28 BST (UK) »
Thanks Rosie. Never fathomed their system but stuck with it today and got the images. Hussah. Anyway, John isn't a witness but Elly probably has that info already. His brother is recorded as a sapper which ties in with Royal Engineers, details of which Elly has as well. Ah well  ???

EDIT: oops, sorry, posts crossed.

Offline rosie99

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Re: Army records lookup at The national Archive please - will pay reasonable fee
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 10 July 19 10:44 BST (UK) »
Thanks Rosie. Never fathomed their system but stuck with it today and got the images.

I always have trouble since the system was changed.

NOW! anyone willing to do a couple of hours work at TNA please?

Just to add that I believe you can only order 12  at a time so would probably have to be done in more than one session especially if someone is trying to look for you at the same time as doing their own research.  Hopefully someone will be able to help you but as far as I am aware not many people on here do Kew look ups. 

Rosie
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