Author Topic: Unknown Coat of Arms - How can I indentify it?!  (Read 2813 times)

Offline Fishrage

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Unknown Coat of Arms - How can I indentify it?!
« on: Saturday 03 August 19 12:59 BST (UK) »
Hi all,

When visiting my ancestral home, I stumbled upon this coat of arms located in Dewsbury Minster (All Saints church), Yorkshire, UK.

The local historian said that no one has been able to identify it so far!

If anyone could help with how I would go about starting the process, please let me know!

c. 1600, engraved on a tombstone.

I can see we have Cloughs (Bringer of death) and Crescents (Honoured by a sovereign) but not sure the significance of the grouping?

Cheers,

Fish

Offline Stephen J F Plowman

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Re: Unknown Coat of Arms - How can I indentify it?!
« Reply #1 on: Friday 23 August 19 12:32 BST (UK) »
First thing, ignore any predetermined significance to the charges or colours you may read online. 99.9% of it is rubbish.   

The Arms are "quartered", the 1st (top left) & 4th (bottom right) are usually the paternal Arms and the 2nd (top right) & 3rd (bottom left) are those a maternal heraldic heiress.  The little crescent in the 1st quarter is not repeated in the 4th quarter so it probably being used as a "difference" to denote a second son.

Assuming for a moment the birds are Choughs my best guess at a blazon would be;

1st & 4th A fess between three choughs [the default position is normally 2 and 1]
2nd & 3rd On a fess between three crescents as many choughs.

Without the colours/tinctures it does make it more difficult to identify.  However, a range of names may be found using Papworth's Ordinary (https://archive.org/details/alphabeticaldicta01papw) &/or the Dictionary of British Arms which is also now online.  Those names could perhaps be cross referenced with the local Gentry.

If time permits I will try to see what I can find.
Plowman - Dorset
Gollop - Dorset
Taunton - Dorset
Carver - Norfolk
Oyns - all
Tweedy - all
Also British Heraldry (www.heraldry-online.org.uk)

Offline Stephen J F Plowman

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Re: Unknown Coat of Arms - How can I indentify it?!
« Reply #2 on: Friday 23 August 19 12:48 BST (UK) »
A quick play with Google found The coats of arms of the nobility and gentry of Yorkshire This has

At Dewsbury — Savile , Warren , Despencer, Scargill ; also argent a bend gules, bordure ; Latham, Haigh , Peebles, Greenwood , Rookes, Cooke, Turner, Carey.

The Arms for Rookes of Roydes Hall are listed in Burke's General Armory* as Argent a fess Sable between three rooks proper. 

*Not 100% reliable.
Plowman - Dorset
Gollop - Dorset
Taunton - Dorset
Carver - Norfolk
Oyns - all
Tweedy - all
Also British Heraldry (www.heraldry-online.org.uk)

Offline KGarrad

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Re: Unknown Coat of Arms - How can I indentify it?!
« Reply #3 on: Friday 23 August 19 13:04 BST (UK) »
Nice one, Stephen :D

Problem is that rooks, crows, ravens, corbie and even choughs all look pretty much the same ;D Heraldically speaking.
Quarters 2 and 3 could be any of the above?
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)


Offline Stephen J F Plowman

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Re: Unknown Coat of Arms - How can I indentify it?!
« Reply #4 on: Friday 23 August 19 13:45 BST (UK) »
Quarters 2 and 3 could be any of the above?

When in doubt, bird.  ;)
Plowman - Dorset
Gollop - Dorset
Taunton - Dorset
Carver - Norfolk
Oyns - all
Tweedy - all
Also British Heraldry (www.heraldry-online.org.uk)

Offline Mart 'n' Al

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Re: Unknown Coat of Arms - How can I indentify it?!
« Reply #5 on: Friday 23 August 19 15:12 BST (UK) »
Don't forget us Martlets.

Martin

Offline Stephen J F Plowman

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Re: Unknown Coat of Arms - How can I indentify it?!
« Reply #6 on: Friday 23 August 19 15:34 BST (UK) »
An answer!
The Heraldry in the Churches of the West Riding of Yorkshire (1890s) by Rev. J. Harvey Bloom (https://huddersfield.exposed/files/books/pages/18348/)

From Page 400 & 401

Quote
On another in north aisle to Marmaduke Rookes, Gent. (son of John Rookes, of Royd's Hall, Bradford, and Elizabeth Cooke, his wife, dau. and heiress of Marmaduke Cooke, of Leeds), and Jane, wife of Marmaduke, dau. of William Turner, of Wakefield, Esq., d. April oth, 1721; her husband d.Aug. 27th, 1724.
Arms (tinctured) Quarterly I. and IV., Arg., a fesssa. betw. three rooks ppr. (Rookes). II. and III., Arg., on a fess vert. betw, three crescents gu. as many martlets or.? (Cooke, of Leeds). Imp. Erm., a cross quarter pierced sa. and charged with four millrinds or. (Turner, of Wakefield).
11. On another to John Turner, Esq., d. Sept. 15th, 1758, aged 76. Arms (tinctured) Turner.

13. On a slab in tower- Quarterly I. and IV. Rookes. II. and III. Cooke.

However, I am not convinced by the Arms of Cooke.  They do not match anything I can find so far for Cooke. 

My current working hypothesis is that they are a corrupted version of Watson (the pedigree below includes Jennet Watson, heiress to Richard Watson) replacing the chevron with a fess - Argent on a chevron Azure between three martlets Gules as many crescents Or.


Plowman - Dorset
Gollop - Dorset
Taunton - Dorset
Carver - Norfolk
Oyns - all
Tweedy - all
Also British Heraldry (www.heraldry-online.org.uk)

Offline Fishrage

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Re: Unknown Coat of Arms - How can I indentify it?!
« Reply #7 on: Friday 23 August 19 16:32 BST (UK) »
Wow, good detective work.  I also found Rookes/Cooke with the help of some nice chap on Discord, using the same book.

I spoke to the local historian who said:

Quote
There is a gravestone in the Churchyard which states-

Ann, daughter of Marmaduke Rookes, Gentleman, d.12.08.1717.

The Cooke family, no graves in the Churchyard that I have found, started the first
Bank in Dewsbury - Hague & Cooke's, which is now Barclays Bank in the Market Place.

Offline Mart 'n' Al

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Re: Unknown Coat of Arms - How can I indentify it?!
« Reply #8 on: Friday 23 August 19 16:53 BST (UK) »
Being a Watson, this is also of interest.

Martin