Author Topic: Alfred Semmens  (Read 851 times)

Offline Amanda Cox

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Alfred Semmens
« on: Friday 09 August 19 13:20 BST (UK) »
My great grandfather was born in July/August 1891.  His name was Alfred Noble and showed on the 1901 census along with his family.  Him mum, Ellen Charlotte Noble moved from London up to Sunderland.  In 1901 she had four children and was a housekeeper for Alfred Semmens, who owned a few shops in Sunderland.  Ellen and Alfred married in 1903.  It would appear that the children, William, John and Alfred took on Semmens as their surname.  The youngest, Elizabeth, I believe died.  I am stuck tracing my family history.  I cannot find a birth certificate for Alfred Noble/Semmens.  I know that John Semmens' birth wasn't registered and he had to apply for a birth certificate in 1941 so that he could join the army.  I know that Alfred Semmens was also in the war but I am not sure if he at any stage registered his birth.  The first born, William Tiffin Noble does have a birth certificate but no name is listed for his father.  I have also found that Elizabeth was baptised, probably because she didn't live long, but I cannot see if her brothers were ever baptised.  I am travelling to Sunderland over the bank holiday weekend to research further.  I was just wondering where to start really with finding a bit more background about him.  Are there any records available to show if someone every changed their name or if you just take on the surname if a parent gets married. If anyone knows of anywhere in Sunderland, apart from the main sources, that I can go to find out more.  I also know that Alfred Semmens Snr died in 1941 aged 78 yrs and their was an interment at Sunderland Cemetery but I cannot find if he ever had a headstone? Any help very much appreciated.

Offline Girl Guide

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Re: Alfred Semmens
« Reply #1 on: Friday 09 August 19 13:36 BST (UK) »
Welcome to Rootschat Amanda.   :)

This might be Alfred's birth registration

NOBLE, ALFRED       NOBLE 
GRO Reference: 1891  D Quarter in KENDAL  Volume 10B  Page 717
 
Illegitimate children usually have a dash for the mother's surname which is why I said this might be his birth.  I don't think the area is right though is it.  Where was Alfred born?
Ashford: Somerset, London
England: Devon, London, New Zealand
Holdway: Wiltshire
Hooper: Bristol, Somerset
Knowling: Devon, London
Southcott: Devon, China
Strong: Wiltshire
Watson: Cambridgeshire
White: Bristol
Windo - Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire

Offline philipsearching

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Re: Alfred Semmens
« Reply #2 on: Friday 09 August 19 13:58 BST (UK) »
And a warm welcome to Rootschat from me.

Where was Alfred born?

According to the 1901 census in the household of Alfred SEMMENS there are: Ellen NOBLE, 36, born London, Middlesex, with NOBLE children (boarders) William 12, Alfred 10, John 3, and Elizabeth 1 - all born in Sunderland.

I was wondering if the Sunderland birthplace was correct for the older two children! (EDITED - William's birth was registered in Sunderland) I had a quick look on FamilySearch for Ellen and son William on the 1891 census but couldn't spot them.

Philip
Please help me to help you by citing sources for information.

Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Girl Guide

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Re: Alfred Semmens
« Reply #3 on: Friday 09 August 19 14:05 BST (UK) »
Is this William's birth registration?

NOBLE, WILLIAM  TIFFIN     - 
GRO Reference: 1890  M Quarter in SUNDERLAND  Volume 10A  Page 582

If so, his second name shouts very loudly to me as a likely surname for his father.  Could Alfred have had the same father?
Ashford: Somerset, London
England: Devon, London, New Zealand
Holdway: Wiltshire
Hooper: Bristol, Somerset
Knowling: Devon, London
Southcott: Devon, China
Strong: Wiltshire
Watson: Cambridgeshire
White: Bristol
Windo - Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire


Offline AntonyMMM

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Re: Alfred Semmens
« Reply #4 on: Friday 09 August 19 14:09 BST (UK) »
You will find Ellen and William on the 1891 census - as Ellen C Noble and her son as William N Tiffin in Nicholson St, Bishop Wearmouth.


I know that John Semmens' birth wasn't registered and he had to apply for a birth certificate in 1941 so that he could join the army.  I know that Alfred Semmens was also in the war but I am not sure if he at any stage registered his birth. 

In 1941 -John didn't apply for a certificate. it looks like the birth  was registered as a late registration by his parents, so the wording on that certificate is quite important.

Alfred could never register his own birth - only a qualified informant (usually a parent) could do that. If he wasn't registered at birth and there was no later reason or need to, they probably wouldn't.

Offline Girl Guide

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Re: Alfred Semmens
« Reply #5 on: Friday 09 August 19 14:22 BST (UK) »
This is on Free bmd

Births Sep 1941
Semmens   John   Noble   Sunderland      10a   1276      
The above transcription represents what is in the GRO index but it is referred to by the following entry
Births 1897 Sep: Semmens,John,Sunderland,10A,See S/41
which implies that this is a late entry, that is an entry that has been registered in a quarter later than the event.

I would suggest, as Anthony has, that you get this birth certificate.
Ashford: Somerset, London
England: Devon, London, New Zealand
Holdway: Wiltshire
Hooper: Bristol, Somerset
Knowling: Devon, London
Southcott: Devon, China
Strong: Wiltshire
Watson: Cambridgeshire
White: Bristol
Windo - Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire

Offline AntonyMMM

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Re: Alfred Semmens
« Reply #6 on: Friday 09 August 19 14:40 BST (UK) »
FreeBMD's notes on late registration are very poor - and ignore the subject of re-registrations almost entirely.

But from the information you have I think it is likely that:

1) William  (b1890)  ................ father was a man called TIFFIN.
2) John (b1897) ...................... father was Alfred SEMMENS
3) Alfred (b abt 1891) .............. father probably wasn't Alfred SEMMENS - he might have been, but if he was, why didn't they register his birth as a late registration in 1941 at the same time as John's ?

Offline Dundee

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Re: Alfred Semmens
« Reply #7 on: Friday 09 August 19 15:07 BST (UK) »
William was baptised in 1894:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J7FL-T6P

Debra  :)

Offline Amanda Cox

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Re: Alfred Semmens
« Reply #8 on: Friday 09 August 19 15:59 BST (UK) »
Thank you Debra, but I can't follow the link without signing up to Family Search?