Romany/Scottish Travellers in Ireland

[KannyLass]

I have run into a brick wall with my family research. I am from a North East Romany and Traveller family. My grandfather, Francis Cooper, was born to Francis James Cooper in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. but, his dad, William (and half of his brothers and sisters) were born in Armagh, in Ireland. I can't find any other information at all for that side of my family. I am coming to realize that some Traveller families did spend time in Northern Ireland. Some to buy horses, some... I don't know why. I don't think my family are Irish, but rather, spent time there in the 1800s before coming back to the UK in the 1870s (William was married to Ellenor Henderson in Kilclooney in 1864. Supposedly, he was born in Armagh in 1843, but I have not found any birth or other details. Their children Andrew, Margaret, Matilda, William, James, and Mary Jane were born in Ireland (the last being in 1874) and  Joseph, Thomas Henderson, and Francis James in Newcastle (the first being in 1878). I found reference to William's dad as being James Cooper, born 1824 but no birth certificate. I can find lots of James Coopers around my area (the Borders, the N of England, and Southern Scotland)... but I just don't know how to find the right people. Any pointers would be wonderful!

[River Tyne Lass]

Welcome to RootsChat.  I like your name - sounds like a good Geordie name!

Unfortunately, I don't know much about Irish research - even though my ancestors  were Irish Travellers on my Dad's side.

http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk/cgi-bin/ML_search.cgi?year=1898&qtr=2&vol=10b&page=109&search=search

However, just in case you might not know - the Marriage Locator website states that this marriage took place at St Philip, Elswick in Newcastle upon Tyne for a Francis James Cooper.  Might this one be connected to you?

[dathai]

I think you may be tracing back the wrong family ?
William Cooper appears to be a Carpenter/Joiner

Marriage 1864
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1864/11615/8275683.pdf

children born in Ireland
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o66/

1881
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q271-BHDX

[KannyLass]

Hi River Tyne Lass and thanks for your reply! I do know that Francis James was married to Marian Paton (daughter of Robert Paton and Martha Mitchell) in Newcastle in 1898. Really, they are just not to be found before the 1881 Newcastle census. I also know that of the kids born in Ireland, all married in the UK (except perhaps Andrew, b. 1866 in Ireland - I can't find much for him at all. Margaret b. 1867 married in 1889 in Newcastle; Matilda b. 1870 married in 1894 in Newcastle. William b. 1871 was a master of a steam ship at the Quay by 1911, but I can't find a wife. James b. 1872 - have yet to find anything for him; Mary Jane b. 1874 married in Newcastle in 1898... I really just can't find anything for them before 1881, except for the marriage of William Cooper and Ellenor Henderson in Armagh in 1864...

Hi Dathai! I am pretty certain I am tracing the right family... it's taken me a long time to get this far! Being labelled a joiner in the census doesn't preclude William from also being a Traveller. Joiners make smaller more ornamental objects - furniture, fittings, etc and not the larger stuff of a carpenter or other woodworker. My grandfather made wooden stools with seats woven from cloth or reeds that he was taught to make by his dad, Francis James). Most Travellers weren't labelled as such in the census, especially in the North East (if they even appear in the census) and most had some kind of house address by the 1800s). I'm not sure of the other links you posted - they went to login forms on other sites. Are these to look for the birth certificates etc? FamilySearch seems to have the same information I have, but no more. I'll look at that Irish one though, for sure. They seem to have settled down when they came back to Newcastle - maybe even before that (most being "labourers, dealers (marine or general), woodworkers (joiners), and a few hawkers). I still don't know anything about them before 1881 though (except the marriage in Armagh!)

[Maiden Stone]

The first link posted by dathai is the official website for civil registration of births, marriages and deaths in Ireland. Civil registration of births and deaths began 1864. Registration of Catholic marriages also began in 1864; civil registration of other marriages 1845. There are also some church records on the website.
The website is free to use. You just have to prove you're not a robot, sign-in and tick the declaration that you will abide by the rules. You have to repeat this procedure on each visit.

[Maiden Stone]

   I found reference to William's dad as being James Cooper, born 1824 but no birth certificate.

You need baptism registers whichever country he was born.  Civil registration of births began at different times in England, Ireland and Scotland.

[aghadowey]

There seems to be something wrong here as dathai has tried to point out. Without seeing his reply and not checking in English records I found the following-

William Cooper, carpenter, of Keady, son of James Cooper (farmer) married 1864 to Eleanor Henderson of Cavanagh Grove-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1864/11615/8275683.pdf
The first 3 children were born at Cavanaghgrove with the informant being Mary Jane Henderson-
1. Son (6 Jun 1865 Cavanaghgrove) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03576/2317744.pdf (father- carpenter, inf.- Mary Jane Henderson)
2. Daughter (5 Oct.1866 Cavanaghgrove) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03511/2291080.pdf (father- carpenter)
3.   Matilda Cooper (1868 Cavanaghgrove) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1868/03422/2255388.pdf (father- carpenter, inf.- Mary Jane Henderson)
The next 3 children born at Ballynewry-
4.   William Cooper (9 Oct.1870 Ballynewry) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1870/03326/2219014.pdf (father- carpenter)
5.   James Cooper (25 Aug.1872 Ballynewry) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1872/03238/2186612.pdf (father- carpenter)
6.   Mary Jane Cooper (10 Aug.1873 Ballynewry) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1873/03188/2168834.pdf (father- carpenter)

https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/fews-lower/mullaghbrack-lower-fews-portion/ballynewry/
This may be 'Cavanaghgrove'
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/fews-lower/kilclooney-lower-fews-portion/cavanagrow/

Added- forgot to mention that William Cooper born c1837 according to marriage record

[aghadowey]

In 1834 there's a James Cooper in Ballynewry-
http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/armagh/tithe-applotments/mullaghbrack-parish.php

[River Tyne Lass]

http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk/cgi-bin/ML_search.cgi?year=1898&qtr=2&vol=10b&page=1&search=search

Just in case you don't know which Church that Mary Jane married at - Marriage Locator records this as St James, Benwell.