John Perkins and Martha Richards married 1820

[Perkins1820]

Hi,

I’m trying to find out who the parents of John Perkins (Born Parish of Aston, Warwickshire, 1820) were. John married Martha Richards (also Born 1820) on 25 April 1836.

Any idea how I can get a copy of the birth record of John Perkins? It looks like the English GRO only goes back to 1837.

Any help much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[rosie99]

English registration does only go back to mid 1837.  You would need to find a baptism to establish their parents.

What information does the census give regarding his age and place of birth (Is it Aston as you have mentioned).  The abode on marriage is  the place they were living prior to the marriage and not necessarily their place of birth

[rosie99]

1841 has them both born in county of Warwickshire, living in Aston
HO107/1149/4 . folio 43 p9

I can't see them yet in 1851

[bevj]

Did he have a son called Thomas?
If so , they are in Dublin in 1901
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPB2-JDJV
(Not that it helps with your question about his parentage).
Bev

[Magiccat1978]

I may have found them in 1891 at Cambridge Place, Bloomsbury Street, Nechells, Aston, Warwickshire. Just Martha and John both 72, both born in Warwickshire. Johns occupation is a Retired Loco Engine Driver.

If you can find his death cert it will hopefully have his parents names on it.

I cant find them on any other census except in 1841 but I'll keep looking.

Hope this helps
Magiccat

[rosie99]

If you can find his death cert it will hopefully have his parents names on it.

English death certificates do not give this information

[maddys52]

I may have found them in 1891 at Cambridge Place, Bloomsbury Street, Nechells, Aston, Warwickshire. Just Martha and John both 72, both born in Warwickshire. Johns occupation is a Retired Loco Engine Driver.

John is a shoemaker in the 1841, he may have changed jobs ... but seems unlikely 

[jomcd967]

Hi Perkins1820,

They’re a tricky lot aren’t they?

1841 Heneage Street, Aston, Warwickshire. (HO107/1149/4/44/10)
John Perkins, 20, spoon m., BIC
Martha Perkins, 20, BIC
Alfred Perkins, 4, BIC
Frederick Perkins, 2, BIC

John Perkins & Martha Richards, married 25 Apr 1836, BOTP, John (x), Martha (signed), witnessed by John Arrowsmith (x) & Rose Richards (signed).

Unlikely that they were only 16 at the time of their marriage as they would both need consent, more likely that they were both born about 1815.

The following children from baptisms or GRO...
Alfred, born1837, s/o John, a spoon maker, & Martha, of Upper W? St, died 1841, of Heneage St.
Henry, birth reg 1839, Aston, Jun qtr, vol.16, p.189 (buried 8 Apr 1839, s/o John & Martha, of Heneage St, 3 days old).
Frederick, bap 1840, s/o John, a spoon maker, & Martha, of Heneage St.
John Thomas, born 1839, bap 26 Dec 1842, MMN Richards
Louisa Matilda, birth reg Aston, 1844, Mar qtr, vol.16, p.196 (Bur 5 Nov 1844, age 9mths - modified) MMN Richard
Rosenia Matilda, birth reg Aston, 1845, Dec qtr, vol.16, p.181 MMN Richards

No obvious sign of them in 1851, but...possibly ?
1851 Alverstoke (HO107/1660/499/5)
J.P. (or J.F.), prisoner, married, 37, spoon maker, b. Birmingham

As posted by Bev, they are in Dublin in 1901 and both John & Martha die there not long after.

But son John Thomas & daughter Rosenia Matilda are definitely there much earlier.
John Thomas Perkins, b1839 in Birmingham, attested to 76th Reg. Of Infantry in Dublin on 13 Feb 1860, discharged at Chatham on 4 Jun 1861 due to epilepsy, intended residence of Dubli.

Rosenia Matilda Perkins married Joseph Castello in Dublin in 1865.

Son Frederick goes to Australia in 1862 and dies there in 1918. (Modified)

Magiccat has them in 1891, and the retired loco driver matches with the later Dublin records, so there must have been a change of career sometime between the mid 1840’s & 1891.

But when I did a blanket census search using the keyword “spoon” I found the following likely candidate for John’s father....

1851 Vauxhall Rd, Aston (HO107/2061/539/26)
Thomas Perkins, 65, spoon filer, b. Birmingham
Ann “, wife, 58, -, b. Birmingham
Eliza “, dau., 23, dress maker, b. Aston
Maria “, dau., 18, steel pen piercer, b. Aston
George “, dau., 14, Spoon filer, b. Aston
Lydia Compton, niece, 22, b. Birmingham

And in 1841, Vauxhall Road, Aston (HO107/1149/9/25/9)
Thomas Perkins, 55, J.Silver worker, BIC
Ann, 45
Harriet, 25
Samuel, 25
Selina, 15
Sarah, 15
Thomas, 15
Eliza, 10
Maria, 5
George 5

So it gets interesting when I try to look for the baptisms of the above children....

Harriet Fanny Perkins, born 1815, baptised 1834, d/o Thomas & Ann, of Vauxhall Rd, a manufacturer of silver ware. This was two days prior to her marriage to George Locker. Interesting too to note that Harriet has her place of birth as Dublin on all census records from 1861 onwards.

Selina Perkins, born 1823, married Thomas Turner in 1848 (witnessed by George & Harriet Locker) and then baptised in 1862 (the same day as her 13 y/o daughter Louisa Elizabeth), her baptism has father Thomas as a silver smith.

1848 sees the baptism of both Eliza Jane (born 1828) and Thomas, an adult (b. abt. 1815), both of Vauxhall Rd, father Thomas a spoon maker.

And a burial for George, s/o Thomas & Ann Perkins of Vauxhall Rd, buried 18 Aug 1831, aged 15 months.

And a burial on 10 Nov 1840 for Louisa, d/o Thomas & Ann of Vauxhall Rd, age 20 (modified).

Thomas (b. abt.1786) dies in 1863 and wife Ann (b. abt.1796) dies in 1859.

No other baptisms or burials found yet.

So now it gets weird!

Samuel Perkins (same as listed in 1841 Vauxhall Rd census) is charged at Birmingham Warwicks on the 22 May 1840 with stealing a watch and is sentenced to 10 years transportation. He is sent to Tasmania and his convict indent has the following - Samuel Perkins, 5/5, 25y, a silver & German silver smith, Mother & father Thos, Vauxhall Road, 3 brothers, John, Thomas & Henry at Birmingham.

Samuel dies in 1893 and the Australian death index has his parents as Thomas Perkins & Ann Bailey.

A Thomas Perkins & Ann Bayley marry on 12 Dec 1812 in Walsall Staffordshire.

So if Samuel is the son of Thomas & Ann of Vauxhall Rd on the 1841 census, how is also the son of Thomas of Vauxhall Rd on his convict indent in 1840?

Samuel also only three brothers listed on the indent - John, Thomas & Henry...I can’t see a Henry anywhere (which doesn’t mean much when most of the children weren’t baptised and he’s probably on his own in 1841) and there is no mention of brother George, or sisters Harriet, Eliza, Sarah, Selina & Maria.

A side note...Lydia Compton, niece in the 1851 census with Thomas & Ann, is likely the daughter of Prudence Bailey and John Crompton, who married in Aston in 1825.

Thoughts?

Jo 

[Perkins1820]

Hi Jo

Thanks for the very detailed response, and apologies for my delay in reverting, for some reason I missed this.  But this is a great help.

I have the details of John and Martha, as you've outlined (with the exception of Rosenia, who is new for me).  I did find another child of John and Martha, Henry, who died in or around his birth in 1839 I think.  And I think they may have also had another daughter, Elizabeth Ellen, but Martha would have been about 46 then, so I'm not so sure on this one.

John and Martha's son Thomas, came to Dublin after his discharge from the army, and he took up a position as a Railway Clerk, at The Works in Inchicore.  John and Martha at a much later stage (I would say in the 1890s) also came to Dublin, as did Elizabeth Ellen (likely earlier).  It's very interesting to me that you say Rosenia also came to Dublin, and married here.

Can I ask how you are confident on the link to Thomas and Ann being the parents of my John Perkins (b~1820) - is this on the assumption that John would have had the same trade as his father, as well as the mention of John on Samuel's criminal record?  I think the additional link is the two other brothers listed - Thomas and Henry.  John called his 4th son Thomas (the army Thomas), and as I discovered, his third son was Henry (who died as a young baby).

In addition, Thomas has a son George, born in Dublin in 1975 - maybe named after his uncle, the son of your Thomas, and the Elizabeth Ellen that I mention, may have been named after her cousin Eliza on your list of the children of Thomas and Ann.

So you message has been very useful for, but if you have any other thoughts on the link between John Perkins and Thomas and Ann Perkins, I'd be delighted!

Thanks so much again!