Author Topic: Don't know where to go from here?  (Read 1539 times)

Offline EBrand

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Don't know where to go from here?
« on: Thursday 05 September 19 09:06 BST (UK) »
Hey Rootschatters,
I have a conundrum that my uncle and I have been trying to solve for many years. I'm hoping that some fresh eyes could point me in the right direction, or pick up something we've missed.

The Problem: My ancestor, George Brand was a convict transported to Western Australia in 1855. He was a resident of Larbert, Stirlingshire in the 1851 Census with his wife Isabella and four children (David, George, Isabella and Andrew). The family came out a couple of years later to Western Australia, where I am today. Trying to trace his ancestry is the problem, His death certificate gives his age at death in 1872 as 55, a birth year of late 1816 or 1817. However, many family histories compiled of this family quote his birth year as 1820- going by how the 1851 census has his age.
 
So now there are two prospective Georges, one born to a David Brand and Janet Spittal in Culross, Perthshire in late 1816, and one born to a John Brand and Isabella Anderson in St. Cuthberts, Midlothian in 1820. Both my uncle and I believe it is the former, but once again there is no conclusive evidence to link it to either.


The evidence:
The 1851 Census has his age as 30, putting his birth year at around 1821. However, his birth place is noted as Culross, Perthshire. At this time they reside in Larbert, Stirlingshire.
His marriage in 1840 to Isabella Duncan in Denny, Stirlingshire. His first four children are also all born in Denny, Stirlingshire.
He was an employee first as a carter and then as a porter of the Scottish Railway Company, and it was from there that he orchestrated his crimes.
I cannot find him in the 1841 Census so far, but he would have just been married.
All other family histories note his parents as John Brand and Isabella Anderson, but without any plausible evidence. Even after I have enquired, people have admitted they don't have proof to show me (frustrating).
There is a precognition record (still kind of unsure of what this is) in 1819 for a David Brand and an Alexander Spittal (note that Spittal is David's wife's maiden name) for the crime of housebreaking in Alloa, which is one of the districts George would later target in his crimes. That leads me to think that maybe it ran in the family, as Isabella Duncan's (George's wife) cousins George and Joseph Donnelly took part and were convicted with George in 1852.


My Additions:

George's children's names follow the traditional Scottish naming pattern:

1st daughter= mother's mother (Isabella)

1st son= father's father (David)

2nd son= mother's father (Andrew)

3rd son= father (George)


From the OPR, Isabella Duncan was born in Muthill, Perthshire on Jul 4 1818 to a Andrew Duncan and an Isabel Kay. This naming pattern fits in perfectly with the David Brand and Janet Spittal theory.

Furthermore, it makes more sense to me for 1816 George to make the journey (presumably by horse and cart) from Culross to Larbert (approx. 4 hours) than for 1820 George to make the journey from Edinburgh to Larbert (approx. 10 hours).

This is a lot of info, but please let me know what you think. Any help is much appreciated!
Thanks,
EB.
Lillis (IRE)
McKenna (IRE)
Minehan (IRE)
Prest (ENG)
Gowland (ENG)
Ashby (ENG)
Brand (SCOT)
McLean (SCOT)
McDonald (SCOT)

Offline loobylooayr

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Re: Don't know where to go from here?
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 05 September 19 09:21 BST (UK) »
Hi,

Could this be George & Isabella on the 1841 Census  - https://freecen1.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

Denny, Stirlingshire,
Catscleuch

George Brand   age 20   born Stirlingshire
Isabella Brand  age 20   born Stirlinshire
David Brand   age 11 months born Stirlingshire.

Looby :)

Offline loobylooayr

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Re: Don't know where to go from here?
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 05 September 19 09:29 BST (UK) »

Denny, Stirlingshire,
Catscleuch

George Brand   age 20   born Stirlingshire
Isabella Brand  age 20   born Stirlinshire
David Brand   age 11 months born Stirlingshire.


Meant to add - I know the place of birth for both is not correct - it should be "outside census county" - but the wrong info may have been supplied or recorded. Unfortunately this transcription doesn't have an occupation noted for George.

I would agree if George has given Culross, Perthshire as his place of birth on the 1851 Census then it's highly unlikely he was born in Midlothian.

Looby :)


Offline EBrand

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Re: Don't know where to go from here?
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 05 September 19 09:32 BST (UK) »
Hi,

Could this be George & Isabella on the 1841 Census  - https://freecen1.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

Denny, Stirlingshire,
Catscleuch

George Brand   age 20   born Stirlingshire
Isabella Brand  age 20   born Stirlinshire
David Brand   age 11 months born Stirlingshire.

Looby :)

Hi!
I think that's right! It makes sense as David would have been born late 1840/early 1841!
Thanks for that!
I can get an image from ScotlandsPeople, right?

EB
Lillis (IRE)
McKenna (IRE)
Minehan (IRE)
Prest (ENG)
Gowland (ENG)
Ashby (ENG)
Brand (SCOT)
McLean (SCOT)
McDonald (SCOT)

Offline loobylooayr

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Re: Don't know where to go from here?
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 05 September 19 09:43 BST (UK) »
Yes, you should be able to find the original record in Scotlands People.

I did a search on Freecen for the name Brand in 1841 in Culross and there is a David Brand age 70 a blacksmith. There is no Janet. I would assume she had died.

Looby :)

Offline loobylooayr

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Re: Don't know where to go from here?
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 05 September 19 09:52 BST (UK) »
Did George & Isabella have any further children after the four listed on 1851 Census?

Looby :)

Offline wivenhoe

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Re: Don't know where to go from here?
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 05 September 19 10:21 BST (UK) »
Where and when did George BRAND commit criminal offence...what was the offence for which he was transported.

Inquirer and Commercial News 29 Oct 1856 p3
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66005987?

from Government Gazette -  Detained for bearing insufficient stamps -
Mrs BRAND, Larbert near Falkirk, Stirlingshire Scotland.

WA BDM birth
6111 /1861 BRAND John     parents    George / DUNCAN Isabella     @ Victoria Dist      

Offline josey

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Re: Don't know where to go from here?
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 05 September 19 11:13 BST (UK) »
Denny, Stirlingshire,
Catscleuch
George Brand   age 20   born Stirlingshire
Isabella Brand  age 20   born Stirlinshire
David Brand   age 11 months born Stirlingshire.
That David's baptism in free index on SP
BRAND DAVID
GEORGE BRAND/ISABELLA DUNCAN FR740 (FR740)
M
16/08/1840
476/30 215
Denny

This shows mother's maiden name & full record may also show father's occupation. Strangely I cannot find this family in 1841 in the free index on SP
Seeking: baptism Philip Murray Feb ish 1814 said to be nr Chatham Kent.
IRE: Kik DRAY[EA], PURCELL, WHITE: Mea LYNCH: Tip MURRAY, SHEEDY: Wem ALLEN, ENGLISHBY; Dub PENROSE: Lim DUNN[E], FRAWLEY, WILLIAMS.
87th Regiment RIF: MURRAY
ENG; Marylebone HAYTER, TROU[W]SDALE, WILLIAMS Con HAMPTON, TREMELLING Wry CLEGG, HOLLAND, HORSEFIELD Coventry McGINTY
CAN; Nova Scotia [Halifax, Pictou]: HOLLAND, WHITE, WILLIAMSON

Offline EBrand

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Re: Don't know where to go from here?
« Reply #8 on: Friday 06 September 19 01:46 BST (UK) »
Hi everyone, thanks for getting back to me!

Looby, they had two more children out in Western Australia. John born in 1861 (who I am descended from) and Irene, who I believe was stillborn.

Wivenhoe, according to a summary of charges compiled by a researcher in archives. These are the major offences for which he was transported, however he was charged approx 14 months earlier for housebreaking (if I remember correctly, donít have the info in front of me right now)
1st Charge (13-14 Sep 1850)- Greenhill Junction near Falkirk Station.
2nd Charge (16 and 17 Oct 1850) but doesnít say the place.
3rd Charge (18 and 19 Feb 1851) no place listed.
4th Charge (18 and 19 Sep 1851) Goods train near Powis Wood, Stirling.
5th Charge (18 and 19 Sep 1851)
Goods train near Greenhill, Falkirk.
6th Charge (26 Oct 1851) no place listed.
7th Charge (31 Oct and 1 Nov 1851) no place listed.

Other charges- goods stolen from a house in Larbert (18 and 22 Sep 1851)
- articles stolen from a house in Port Street, Stirling (27 Oct 1851).

What would bearing insufficient stamps mean??

Josey,
Thank you for that!
That was the problem my uncle and I ran into last night- hence why I couldnít find the record for the 1841 census on Ancestry or anywhere else.
Itís strange because that entry on FreeCen is pretty accurate, but how come itís not there on SP or Ancestry??

Thanks for all your help!
EB
Lillis (IRE)
McKenna (IRE)
Minehan (IRE)
Prest (ENG)
Gowland (ENG)
Ashby (ENG)
Brand (SCOT)
McLean (SCOT)
McDonald (SCOT)