Author Topic: Looking for Kirwan townland in County Wexford circa 1853  (Read 2320 times)

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Looking for Kirwan townland in County Wexford circa 1853
« Reply #18 on: Saturday 05 October 19 21:59 BST (UK) »
The issue for me is that I do not know if Martin Kirwan lived in Wexford Town itself or outside of the town. Martin was a market gardener in Canada. According to information provided by a son in the mid 1890s, "Martin and Mary (Hogan) Kerwin [were] natives of Wexford, Ireland... . Martin Kerwin, Sr., followed the occupations of miller and gardener all his life." This would seem to indicate that Martin did not live in Wexford Town.

I am no longer sure this is relevant (see earlier points), but for the record I don't agree with this assessment.

My great-grandfather was a gardener. He lived in the town.
His brother-in-law was also a gardener. He too lived in town.

There were nurseries and multiple "big houses" in the vicinity of, and in town for them to work in.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline oldohiohome

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Re: Looking for Kirwan townland in County Wexford circa 1853
« Reply #19 on: Saturday 05 October 19 22:16 BST (UK) »
x

Offline mrk

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Re: Looking for Kirwan townland in County Wexford circa 1853
« Reply #20 on: Sunday 06 October 19 00:55 BST (UK) »
The post included a link to Martin Kirwan and Mary Cloak Hogan's marriage:
https://registers.nli.ie/pages/vtls000634137_075
[/quote]
Where did "Hogan" come from?
[/quote]

My mistake, Mary Cloak's mother remarried a Hogan. Mary (Cloak) Kirwan became known as Mary Hogan to her descendants in Canada.

Based on the Irish Catholic parish records found to date, it is very probable that Patrick Cloak and Mary Power were the parents of Mary Cloak who married Martin Kirwan in 1848. Patrick Cloak and Mary Power were married in Wexford in 1823. Their daughter, Mary (who later married Martin Kirwan) was baptized 7 July 1824. It is my hunch that Patrick Cloak died sometime in the later 1820s and his widow, Mary (Power) Cloak, subsequently married William Hogan in 1830. This is, I believe, the Hogan connection which was to become part of the Kerwin family tree: daughter Mary Cloak became William Hogan’s step child and thus, to her descendants in Canada, came to be known as Mary Hogan. This is clearly demonstrated in pre-1885 Canadian records in which a maiden name is provided: all show Mary Cloak. Canadian records after 1885 in which Martin's and Mary's children were informants all give Hogan as Mary's name.

Offline mrk

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Re: Looking for Kirwan townland in County Wexford circa 1853
« Reply #21 on: Sunday 06 October 19 01:14 BST (UK) »
Unfortunately, we do not know names of any of Martin Kirwan's siblings. I have not found a Cloak sibling for Mary but she did have at least two Hogan half brothers.

There is no mention of the Kerwin's in any Lambton County history that I know of. Obituaries for Martin and Mary were very brief and provided no family information.

My guess is that further research into the Hogans of Wexford might be more fruitful than looking into the Cloaks as Mary seems to have been more closely identified with William Hogan's family  as that is how Mary's children in Canada seem to have viewed her.

All of Mary and Martin's children are known and it appears that Mary and Martin followed the Irish naming tradition; this has not been confirmed completely but seems to be the case.


Offline mrk

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Re: Looking for Kirwan townland in County Wexford circa 1853
« Reply #22 on: Sunday 06 October 19 02:23 BST (UK) »
Whoa! So many issues here!

In your original posting you told us your g...grandfather was Patrick Kirwan, son of Martin Kirwan and Mary Cloak/Cloake, baptized Wexford 1853.
But at this point we know that:
- There was a Martin Kirwan and Mary CLOAK in Wexford at this time, but
- The Patrick Kirwan baptized in 1853 is recorded as the son of Martin and Mary POOR (as already pointed out by OldOhio).
- Your family history says the mother was neither Cloak, nor Poor, but HOGAN.

So, three different surnames, and no consistency with the records!

At this point I would ask: Is it clear that your Kirwans were really from Wexford town, or just generically the county. I would not be sure at this point.
[/quote]

When I first began my Kerwin family research in March 2017, I did not know whether family lore referred to Wexford Town or to County Wexford. However, with the Irish Catholic parish records found to date, there is no mistaking that Martin Kirwan and Mary Cloak had strong ties to Wexford Town and that the names Cloak, Power, and Hogan do fit.

Based on research to this point, I am confident that Patrick Cloak and Mary Power were married in 1823. Their daughter, Mary Cloak was baptized 7 July 1824. I am assuming that Patrick Cloak died sometime during the mid- to late 1820s -- of course, there are no interment records -- and his widow then married William Hogan in 1830. Mary Cloak then became William Hogan's step-daughter -- and thus was later known by her children in Canada as Mary Hogan.

There was always some confusion among earlier family historians regarding this discrepancy in Mary's maiden name. It is interesting to note, however, that Cloak is given as Mary's maiden name in all Canadian records up to 1885. After 1885, when her children were informants, Canadian records show Mary's maiden name as Hogan. There can, however, be no doubt that Mary Cloak and Mary Hogan are one and the same: in the marriage records for my great grandparents, Patrick Kerwin and Ellen Gavin, the parish record from Our Lady of Mercy in Sarnia, Ontario dated 7 January 1885, gives Mary's name as Hogan. However, the civil marriage registration for the very same event records Cloak as Mary's maiden name.

I believe that the 1853 baptism record for Patrick Kirwan is erroneous: I do not think it too far-fetched to imagine that the parish priest mistakenly recorded the mother as Mary Poor rather than Mary Cloak. Patrick's maternal grandmother was Mary Power and this is where I think that parish priest erred. I suspect that family names Poor and Power are one and the same: try saying Poor and Power quickly and you will see what I mean and this, I think, is more likely given that the names were recorded in an age when the spelling of names was often of little or no import.

Several Kerwin family trees variously give the birth year of Patrick Kirwan as 1854 or 1855. In a letter dated 19 September 1960, my grandfather, Patrick Grandcourt Kerwin wrote, “My grandfather [Martin] Kerwin came from Wexford, Ireland, and my father [Patrick] was born there on December 23, 1854.” It is very likely that Patrick Grandcourt Kerwin was not entirely accurate in his statement regarding his father’s birthdate as he was not yet nine years old when his father died. This inaccuracy was later demonstrated as a search of all Catholic baptismal records in the parish of Wexford during this time frame revealed only one entry for a Patrick Kirwan whose parents were Martin and Mary.  Patrick’s date of birth was recorded as 21 December and he was baptized the following day, 22 December 1853.

I believe that I am on the right track concerning the above but what I'd really like to know, as stated in previous posts, is when and where Martin Kirwan was born. Hopefully, I'll eventually figure this out!

Thanks again for all of your responses!

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Looking for Kirwan townland in County Wexford circa 1853
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 06 October 19 02:34 BST (UK) »
......

I believe that I am on the right track concerning the above but what I'd really like to know, as stated in previous posts, is when and where Martin Kirwan was born. Hopefully, I'll eventually figure this out!

Thanks again for all of your responses!

You may be on the right track, but you did not exactly help those of us trying to help you. You knew substantially more than what you posted initially, which was an incomplete version.
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Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Looking for Kirwan townland in County Wexford circa 1853
« Reply #24 on: Sunday 06 October 19 03:06 BST (UK) »
Unfortunately, we do not know names of any of Martin Kirwan's siblings.

But we do know that there was more than one Martin Kirwan in Wexford Town at precisely the same time. Something I suspect you knew too.
There is a November 1851 baptism in Wexford for a Mary Kirwan, parents Martin Kirwan and Margaret Boland. First sponsor Edward Kirwan.

What that means is that even if you find a Martin Kirwan in records, the question will be, which one?
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Looking for Kirwan townland in County Wexford circa 1853
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 06 October 19 03:51 BST (UK) »
"Kirwan" is the only spelling of that surname on Griffith's in Wexford.

There is also Kerevan in Griffiths.
Kerevan and Kirwin in Valuation Office Books (pre-Griffiths).
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline oldohiohome

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Re: Looking for Kirwan townland in County Wexford circa 1853
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 06 October 19 04:39 BST (UK) »

I believe that the 1853 baptism record for Patrick Kirwan is erroneous: I do not think it too far-fetched to imagine that the parish priest mistakenly recorded the mother as Mary Poor rather than Mary Cloak. Patrick's maternal grandmother was Mary Power and this is where I think that parish priest erred. I suspect that family names Poor and Power are one and the same: try saying Poor and Power quickly and you will see what I mean and this, I think, is more likely given that the names were recorded in an age when the spelling of names was often of little or no import.

...

. In a letter dated 19 September 1960, my grandfather, Patrick Grandcourt Kerwin wrote, “My grandfather [Martin] Kerwin came from Wexford, Ireland, and my father [Patrick] was born there on December 23, 1854.” It is very likely that Patrick Grandcourt Kerwin was not entirely accurate in his statement regarding his father’s birthdate as he was not yet nine years old when his father died. This inaccuracy was later demonstrated as a search of all Catholic baptismal records in the parish of Wexford during this time frame revealed only one entry for a Patrick Kirwan whose parents were Martin and Mary.  Patrick’s date of birth was recorded as 21 December and he was baptized the following day, 22 December 1853.

This makes a lot of sense and I agree,  since the date and month that your grandfather knew is so close to that of the baptism date. I have seen very many cases where the American records were off by a year or two from the actual birth. I hadn't found the part about Mary Power on irelandxo when I stated that Patrick's birth was the wrong one.

I  agree that you need to look more at Hogan than at Cloak, unfortunately, since Cloak is so much easier to find.

And now that I know the Patrick baptism is "your" Patrick, I will take a longer look at John Hogan, possible step-brother.  I had discounted him because of the name Poor on the record, but following him up makes sense.

It's late here, but if I get a chance tomorrow or the next day, I will take another look for the surnames in Wexford Town.

And I wonder if the Cloaks were rural and Mary moved to the Town before she remarried. Or did Mr Hogan take over the Cloak farm?  - Just thinking out loud. Or did she move to his?  - A lot depends on what you find in Wexford Town.