Author Topic: DNA ancestry  (Read 1085 times)

Offline Nicholas Mann

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DNA ancestry
« on: Sunday 06 October 19 14:46 BST (UK) »
Hi, I had a DNA test which revealed my patriline was Irish, probably to an O'Neill or Mahon from Co. Clare.  So I joined ancestry.co.uk and started looking for the Irish connection as my English patriline focuses on the West Riding.  I had never done this before, but was able to trace my patriline back from a Joseph Mann 1823-68 (Calverley), the furthest my family had ever gone, to his father William Mann 1800-1850 (Idle, Calverley) to his father John Mann 1757-1827 (same) to his father Jonas or Jonah Mann 1732-1787 (same) to his father John Mann 1698-1760 (Otley) to his father Edward Mann 1651/71-1717 (Otley).  They all marry local women whose ancestry goes back further than Edward in these parishes.  There are no Manns in the records before Edward.  SO, I assume Edward came from elsewhere and married a West Riding girl, Martha Ward in 1691 to be precise.  My question is, could Edward have come from Ireland given the Irish diaspora, especially into the Lancaster/Yorkshire area, at this time?  I am informed the Mahons (often pronounced 'mann') led uprisings at this time and many were forced to flee Ireland.  Could a Mahon have come from Ireland and become my ancestor Edward Mann?  Can anyone suggest what the next step would be to find out if this is the case?  I would be very grateful for any help.

Offline jim1

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Re: DNA ancestry
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 06 October 19 17:24 BST (UK) »
Hello & welcome
It's a huge assumption that Mann is a corruption of Mahon.
It's possible it is but could also be a corruption of other names either
English or European (or not).
I'm a bit concerned about this part:
Quote
to his father John Mann 1698-1760 (Otley) to his father Edward Mann 1651/71-1717 (Otley).
This says Edward could have been 73 when John was born.
Even 53 is at the top end for men fathering children.
Do you know who is wife is?
Would she have been of childbearing age in 1698?
Don't want to sound too negative but if this is as far as the paper trail leads it's best to move on until something comes along at a later date.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline Annie65115

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Re: DNA ancestry
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 06 October 19 18:04 BST (UK) »
I read it that Edward was b in 1651 or 1671, so would have been of a perfectly appropriat age to be fathering a child born in 1698.

But in answer to the question: yes, itís perfectly possible that you have Irish forbears. But all that your DNA results are telling you is that your results are similar to those of people who are presumed to have roots in Ireland. And this is based on those people who have tbeen std with the company so far, so that as more people test, so they revise their assessments and this can change your alleged origins markedly.

None of the DNA testing companies will give a timeline for how far back their results look, so you could be looking back many centuries. Itís far from an exact science. What they definitely DONT do is give an assessment of recent events - sometimes people see that their results say they are 25% Irish (for example), and complain that this canít be right because none of their grandparents was born in Ireland!
Bradbury (Sedgeley, Bilston, Warrington)
Cooper (Sedgeley, Bilston)
Kilner/Kilmer (Leic, Notts)
Greenfield (Liverpool)
Holyland (Anywhere and everywhere, also Holiland Holliland Hollyland)
Pryce/Price (Welshpool, Liverpool)
Rawson (Leicester)
Upton (Desford, Leics)
Partrick (Vera and George, Leicester)
Marshall (Westmorland, Cheshire/Leicester)

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: DNA ancestry
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 06 October 19 19:39 BST (UK) »
Keep in mind that there was a civil war in mid 17th century, The Civil War or The War of the Three Kingdoms and consequently much movement of men around the 3 kingdoms of the British Isles. Another consequence was disruption to record-keeping and loss of records.
Another king was overthrown in 1688, leading to another civil war in Ireland and more men of various nationalities moving around, some beginning new lives in another country.
Some Yorkshire soldiers were granted land in Ireland in 17thC.
What evidence/sources are you referring to regarding Irish settlement in Yorkshire/Lancashire area in 17thC.?
I would look closer to Otley for Mann families before taking a leap to Ireland. What was happening in Otley at the time? What was occupation of Edward Mann? Are there any relevant Mann wills, leases or other documents ? 
Cowban


Offline Craclyn

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Re: DNA ancestry
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 06 October 19 22:57 BST (UK) »
Focus on following DNA matches rather than worrying about their ethnicity estimates.
Crackett, Cracket, Webb, Turner, Henderson, Murray, Carr, Stavers, Thornton, Oliver, Davis, Hall, Anderson, Atknin, Austin, Bainbridge, Beach, Bullman, Charlton, Chator, Corbett, Corsall, Coxon, Davis, Dinnin, Dow, Farside, Fitton, Garden, Geddes, Gowans, Harmsworth, Hedderweek, Heron, Hedley, Hunter, Ironside, Jameson, Johnson, Laidler, Leck, Mason, Miller, Milne, Nesbitt, Newton, Parkinson, Piery, Prudow, Reay, Reed, Read, Reid, Robinson, Ruddiman, Smith, Tait, Thompson, Watson, Wilson, Youn

Offline Nicholas Mann

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Re: DNA ancestry
« Reply #5 on: Monday 07 October 19 10:59 BST (UK) »
Thank you, this is all very helpful for someone just starting out.  Edward Mann married Martha Ward in 1691 (so I think a birthdate of 1671 for him is far more likely) and John Mann in 1698 was their fourth child so the dates stack up.  She was born in 1696. But even with such good records to this point, Edward appears out nowhere.  Yes, records were lost in the troubles of that time, but Otley has good records going back to 1592, with no reported lacunas there.  Irish from Clare, Munster etc., are described in various Irish genealogy sites as coming to England for work in the 17th century and Edward is described as a "Labourer". I pick on the Mahons given the pronunciation (man or marn) and the fact they had to flee Ireland at this time due to their leadership of rebellions against the English, and then bury their language, name and religion to avoid persecution.  I realise the tenuousness of working with DNA results but I have a particular patrilineal DNA (FGC5628 / Y4010) which is the focus of an Irish study group as its dating can be ascribed to such a precisely defined period and people.  It's worth a look, and shall follow up the advice you have so kindly given me here to see if I can find the Irish ancestral connection outside the DNA in the records.

Offline Annie65115

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Re: DNA ancestry
« Reply #6 on: Monday 07 October 19 12:19 BST (UK) »
This may be a silly question, BUT --- if people in ireland had to flee because they had rebelled against the English rule, why would they flee to England??
Bradbury (Sedgeley, Bilston, Warrington)
Cooper (Sedgeley, Bilston)
Kilner/Kilmer (Leic, Notts)
Greenfield (Liverpool)
Holyland (Anywhere and everywhere, also Holiland Holliland Hollyland)
Pryce/Price (Welshpool, Liverpool)
Rawson (Leicester)
Upton (Desford, Leics)
Partrick (Vera and George, Leicester)
Marshall (Westmorland, Cheshire/Leicester)

Offline Nicholas Mann

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Re: DNA ancestry
« Reply #7 on: Monday 07 October 19 15:44 BST (UK) »
Yes, many Irish joined the French army at this time, but some continued supplying labour to England.  I have joined another search engine and have found some more Manns in the West Riding before Edward.  So I will keep looking!

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: DNA ancestry
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 10 October 19 23:36 BST (UK) »
Not quite West Riding but occurrences of Mann nearer than Ireland.
 Richard Mann, member of the Eastland Company, was apprenticed in York 1661. Possibly brother to a John Mann who was apprenticed a few years later. (Eastland Company records)
Gilbert Mann, ordained deacon, 1622 for Bishopthorpe. (York Clergy Ordinations 1561-1842)
Source: Borthwick Institute, University of York  online catalogue https://www.york.ac.uk 
Cowban