SAVILL - Remittance Man in New Zealand, c1935 - 1984

[mrnz2014]

Mckha489

Thank you for your valuable input - I was almost swayed when I first saw this information some time ago (age, m mariner etc) but had to rule it out on the strength of Peter Standish's 'alleged' birth date of 08 Jan 1913 on his NZ Army attestation form.  It is noteworthy that the NZ Timaru Hospital records and his Death Cert his birth date as: 06 Jan 1907 (per Savill’s NZ Death Certificate).  The revised birth date (1913) may have been linked to a desire to gain entry to the Army by reducing his age although he fell well within the age limits permitted for o'seas service.  I imagine at the time he was hospitalised he would have had no reason to falsify his birthday so perhaps 1907 is the most correct, ergo very close to Philip's however Peter Standish did not decease in 1988 nor in Brentwood?

I did find it ironic that Philip for a man obviously sent to Sudan to gain experience or .....etc (as was the practice for a number Savill men) that all the ships he sailed on were Savill line ships and all involved NZ as a destination?  The maritime link is strong but connecting any identity link between Philip and Peter Standish I think is a no go.  The problem is that none of the information I have from NZ records is verifiable as accurate or otherwise.  The date variations re birth does not even take me to another Savill of similar vintage who fits the bill.

I remain stuck at this point and welcome any other ideas.

Thank you for helping.

Regards, Ian

[AMBLY]

Hi Ian,

A very intriguing case is this. Will be very interested in see what may come of the Funeral Director angle!

Who was the informant to his death?  Wondering if it was his friend, Mary Nicol of 68 Bowker St. Kensington, Timaru.  From Electoral Rolls etc, it looks like her husband was Alexander Wyper Nicol (~1913-1978). Maybe they have descendants who might know something?

Also, the Frank SAVILLE, 2hrs old, who is also buried in Timaru Cemetery, buried 1955, (different Row & Plot to PSS) - did you ever track down who his parents were?

The other question is.. wondering if you've ever looked into the following chappie - who, I've discovered, comes from a family where  it's surname 'Saville' wasn't always...

On the Nominal Roll that you have for PSS, care of Clayton Station, Fairlie,  listed after PSS is:

Maurice Melbourne SAVILLE, of Horwell Downs, Fairlie, Sth Canterbury (b 1913-d 1966)
NoK: mother E.M SAVILLE of Horwell Downs.

Searching the Electoral Roll, it becomes evident, his family is at least comprised of:
Frederick George SAVILLE, runholder, father
Elsie Mary SAVILLE, married, mother
Plus a SAVILLE  brother George and a sister Margaret,  both with middle name Bromley.

Searching NZ BMD:
MARRIAGE: Elsie Mary BROMLEY, to  Frederick George SCANES in 1906

BIRTHS: Parents given names: Elsie Mary and Frederick George
Margaret Bromley SCANES, born 1907
Joan Copelstone SCANES, b 1909
Maurice Melbourne SAVILLE born 1913, mother: Elsie Mary

(There is also another SCANES family, obviously related : John Coppelstone SCANES and wife Helen Louisa POWNEY, who married 1910).

In the WW1 New Zealand Army WWI Reserve Rolls, is Frederick George SCANES, Horwell Downs.

There's much more to look at in this angle, but I can see that as far back as 2010, someone was looking into F G Scanes, in the UK records - but maybe that was yourself?

added: Looks like the SCANES to SAVILLE change was made legal via deed poll 1926
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ois/


Cheers
AMBLY

[mrnz2014]

Hi Ambly

No reply yet fm Funeral Dirs – file archived, requested.

Re NICOL – highly likely informant.  Alex Wyper N. (Motherwell , Lanark) and Mary H. (surname unk) marr in Scot (prob Glasgow); living 595 Glasgow Rd, Glasgow 1950-51.  Emig to Wgtn 30 Dec 1952 – he a Fitter. Went to Dunedin on arr , staying c/o Robertson, 45 Maryville Tce Mornington (family?).  Fitter/Engr. Left Dnd c1965 for Timaru – listed in 1969 art Bowker Rd (cnr section) on Otipua Rd.  PSS lived diag opp, 50 off meters fm Nicols.  Alex died 1978.  Mary remained, probably neighbourly.  She did not die until 1991 so would poss have cared for PSS as long as he remained at 62 Otipua (believe he boarded).  House sold 6 weeks after death.  Relationship with Nicols prob incidental.

Frank Saville born/bur 1955 (2hrs) – Parents UNK.  The other Frank Saville born 1917-1999 (Parents, James W. and Emm E. Saville)

Maurice Melb Saville – interesting that MM also in NZ Artillery – he and PSS would likely have met,  was also a Clerk by trade.  Went with 2nd Echelon to Middle East with 7 Anti-tank Regt.  Had looked at this family from Horwell Downs previously – interesting that HD prop is very near Clayton Station, same area.  No apparent connx.  But why would PSS, a public sch educ, well spoken and cultured upper class, snappily dressed man who spoke several languages and whose occup was Seaman, take a job as a farm lab at Fairlie ?? unless there was a connex, or he wanted to hide ??  Philip Savill finished his sea service in 1937 around same time as PSS came ashore in NZ (all ships Philip on were SSL with NZ destinations ??)

Neither is there any connex with the (Shaw) Savills of St Helens, Hanmer  - Walter Savill (fndr of S-Sav) brother Frederick James emig to NZ and built “St Helens” sheep station.  Mentioned in David Savill’s History of the SS Line.

SCANES – Fred George fm IRE, wife Elsie Mary BROMLEY fm Vic Aust.

Got to be something that makes the connex ? – PSS getting month Remit Cheques fm mother and cashing at ANZ Timaru.  Threatened to come home if they were late! 

Statement from Queen Mary Hosp Hanmer also revealing:
PSS in QM 1946, post POW care. Mother, Mrs Pauline SAVILL – could not be contacted. Medical File advises ‘considerable difficulty has been experienced in regard to his next-of-kin; those previously nominated by him have refused to continue as such’.   PSS advised NOK now:  Miss Maureen FINLAY of Temuka.
NOK:    1946  “Friend” – Miss Maureen FINLAY, 22 Dyson St, Temuka }  refused to be PSSs’ NOK !!  Deceased.         

1946 -   Another “FRIEND” nominated by PSS as NOK – Miss Elspeth BURBURY
“Sherwood” Waiau, Hurunui, Nth Canterbury  } also refused to be PSS’s NOK !! (Memo 21 Jan 1946) – Burbury went to live in Hamilton after war, Occupation: Gardener.  Died.  ‘Miss Burbury became NOK as SAVILL stated that his Mother & Sister were killed in Spain during the rebellion and his Father has been missing since that period.’     
‘Medically boarded at QM Hospital, requested fitness to attend Court Martial in England – NOT fit to undergo any form of punishment. Suffering anxiety state & malnutrition following time in POW Camp.’
   
Got to be a connex / answer somewhere – grateful for any suggestions.

Ian

[mckha489]

PSS getting month Remit Cheques fm mother and cashing at ANZ Timaru.  Threatened to come home if they were late! 

How do you know this?

[mrnz2014]

Anecdotal from Rootschat - Savill rented 42 Grey Rd house/flat from father of the informant (Owen) below. I found this when initially exploring Rootschat for SAVILL info in 2017: 

- Re: Remittance Men sent to the Colonies

« Reply #1 on: Sunday 10 October 2004 07:11 BST (UK) » 2017
    Yes !  when I was a young man living in Timaru N.Z in 1953,  there was a remittance man who  came from England.. He was from the Savill [the shaw savill] shipping line; his name was from memory Peter.  He rented a flat from my father, and spoke beautiful English, recited Bobby Burns and of course was mostly well imbibed, the drunker he got the better he recited.  He collected his remittance every month by cheque and cashed it at the local ANZ bank.
Hope this helps,
Owen S. Powell

Owen & Ann POWELL - we live 100 kls. north of Sydney on the lakes

================================================

In addition, a Timaru researcher responded to my Ancestry.com query in July 2017:
"Unbeknown to my husband G...., Peter Savill was an acquaintance of his father (deceased) who worked at the Club Hotel as a barman 1945-65; then went to Grosvenor Hotel. Peter was also friendly with another family friend, Betsy McK. She is the one who can remember him (Peter) quite clearly.

She told me this gentleman (Peter) belongs somewhere in the Savill family of Shaw Savill Shipping.  She said he was very intelligent and could apparently speak several languages so not sure if he was used in any way during the war?

Very well dressed, good quality well cut suits, a bit of a talker who liked a few drinks. He boarded at 62 Otipua Rd, Timaru which interestingly was sold about 6 weeks after he died in 1991.

She also said that he was a ‘remittance man’ sent away when he supposedly got a maid pregnant.  Apparently his family paid for the child’s education. Whenever he wanted more money he used to threaten to go back to England ! 

Either during or just after the war he was in England and walked up the long drive to his house and rang the bell. The butler answered. He came back and said his father wasn't home but Peter could see him through a window sitting by a fire. Families!"

The medically related info is from his military file, as provided by the then QM Hosp Superintendent.

The plot thickens .....

Regards, Ian

[mckha489]

OK, thank you. It is fascinating isn’t it.

I wondered about the spinster daughters of Walter,  whether one of them was actually his mother, but still don’t see any likely birth.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding something, but I don’t see how he can be Phillip, as Phillip is accounted for later than 1937.

You don’t actually know if P Saville on those ships IS Phillip do you?  Isn’t there some overlap with his Sudan dates which would rule that out?

Perhaps his name wasn’t even Peter Saville?!

[mrnz2014]

I think you are right.  Philip Savill and Peter Savill(e) being seaman may be coincidental as is the P. Savill connection to NZ.  However the Shaw Savill Soc Pres Graham pepper, confirms Philip Savill on said ships and dates as previously reported.  So he must have visited NZ often until he finally signed off in 1937 - in the UK, and as you say is accounted for until his death in the UK.

 I have always doubted the "Peter Standish" part of his name but Savill/Saville in what ever form, I think may be right, PS not wanting t let go of such a distinguished connection (just modifying his surname by adding the (e) to deflect attention fm family.  The only other Savill's of note connected to same family was a brewing arm, I think through Walter Savill's older brother Ebenezer Savill.  Theorretically PSS could have claimed connex to shipping SSL through any one of Walters brothers? (or sisters, if he changed his name to Savill from whatever it was he had been born??)

Harder & harder the deeper one looks !

Ian