Lookup Request: Thomas and Sabina Mullin

[Rosygem]

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone would be able to help me with a search please?

I've been researching my maternal Nanna's family line since the beginning of the year and it's been a difficult process as I wasn't able to find or verify much information on her fathers side. My G.GD didn't have a good relationship with his Dad and nobody in the family seems to know much about the history. So I've been trying really hard to find out as much as I can to solve the mysteries.

I made a bit of a break through last month which I was so excited about, but now I'm stuck again!!

This is where I'm at with this line of the family tree...

Irene Mullins (my Nanna)
b. 1930 Warrington, Cheshire
d. 2019 Warrington, Cheshire
|
Joseph Mullins (my G.GD)
b. 1903 Warrington, Cheshire
d. 1984 Warrington, Cheshire
|
John Mullins (my 2x G.GD)
b. 1870 Warrington, Cheshire
d. 1951 St. Helens, Cheshire
|
John Mullins (my 3x G.GD)
b. 1837  Galway, Ireland
d. unknown
|
Thomas Mullins (my 4x G.GD)
b. abt 1811 Ireland
d. 1878 Newcastle under Lyme, Staffordshire (?)


My brick wall is to do with my 4x G.GD Thomas Mullins (alt. spellings Mullin, Mullen, Mullings). I'd really like to find out who my 5x G.GParents are and whether there are any siblings etc

Thomas was married to Sabina - I know this from some census records I have:
1851 England Census - https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8860&h=8265297&ssrc=pt&tid=163816637&pid=232139021856&usePUB=true
1861 England Census - https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8767&h=19908870&ssrc=pt&tid=163816637&pid=232139021856&usePUB=true
1871 England Census - https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7619&h=6648409&ssrc=pt&tid=163816637&pid=232139021856&usePUB=true

From these records, I know Thomas and Sabina were born in Ireland and their approx. birth years.
I know they had 7 children - John, Thomas, Mary, Sally, Sarah, Margaret and Daniel.
(I do believe I have the correct census records as the address matches that of a birth certificate I have for my 2x G.GD's sister born in 1872 in Newcastle under Lyme)

I did a search on rootsireland.com - for these children with parents named Thomas and Sabina.
I found baptism records for John, Thomas and Mary - born in Galway, Ireland. (John being my 3x G.GD) - there were no other possible baptism records, and interestingly the mothers name was given as Sabina Murray.

So I searched on roostireland again for any marriage records for a Thomas and Sabina. I had originally thought Sabina's maiden name could be Quinn (based off Ancestry hints/possible records) ....and I found a marriage record for Thomas to Sabina Quinn...but if this was the correct marriage then they would have had their first 3 children born out of wedlock and I doubt they'd have been able to be baptised in this case.
There was only one other marriage record for Thomas marrying Sabina Murray in 1836 Galway, Ireland. I therefore believe this is the correct marriage record, and matches the baptism records I've found.
Sadly the marriage record doesn't give me any fathers names so I'm stuck on following this line further back now and don't know where to go from here.
There are witnesses on the record, but I don't know if these are siblings, other family members etc.

I've reached out to someone on Ancestry.com who seems to share the same family line on one of their trees, it came up as and Ancestry hint. However they have Sabina's maiden name as Quinn, where as I am certain it should be Murray. I've asked if they'd be able to share the research but not had much luck. On their tree they have Thomas Mullins with a baptism record from 1810, Kilkenny Ireland - https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/61039/05027_04_0048/4511618 - which gives fathers name as James Mullin. But I don't know if this is the correct info, and it actually looks like it says wife "Judy O'flan..."

Where do I go with my research now? There has to be more siblings, other family members etc surely. Would anyone be willing to dissect my long message and help with a lookup?

Thanks so much in advance

[Sinann]

John Mullins (my 3x G.GD)
b. 1837  Galway, Ireland
d. unknown
|
Thomas Mullins (my 4x G.GD)
b. abt 1811 Ireland
d. 1878 Newcastle under Lyme, Staffordshire (?)



From these records, I know Thomas and Sabina were born in Ireland and their approx. birth years.
I know they had 7 children - John, Thomas, Mary, Sally, Sarah, Margaret and Daniel.
(I do believe I have the correct census records as the address matches that of a birth certificate I have for my 3x G.GD's sister born in 1872 in Newcastle under Lyme)

I did a search on rootsireland.com - for these children with parents named Thomas and Sabina.
I found baptism records for John, Thomas and Mary - born in Galway, Ireland. (John being my 3x G.GD) - there were no other possible baptism records, and interestingly the mothers name was given as Sabina Murray.

Which parish in Galway?
Than have a look here to see if any earlier records survive. https://registers.nli.ie/
I would guess if you couldn't find them on RootsIreland than the chances are earlier records never existed or haven't survived, it depends on the parish.

[Rosygem]

The Parish is Tuam/Dunmore on the baptisms for 3 of their children.
2 children (according to the census records I have) were also born in Ireland but I can't find baptism records for these.

I've searched for Thomas Mullin born about 1811 to see what baptism records come up but there are so many and I don't know how to narrow it down to find the right one. I'm not even sure if he would also have been baptised in the same Parish as his children.

The ancestry hint tells me that someone else has him as born in Kilkenny, father James Mullin...but I don't know if this is correct and I try to verify all of my sources as much as possible.

[Sinann]

First how sure are you that your John Mullins was born in Galway?

Tuam and Dunmore are neighbouring parishes
Tuam
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1082
Dunmore
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1061

The two children born in Ireland you haven't found baptisms for are they older or younger than John Thomas and Mary?

There is no point in looking for a baptism for Thomas born c 1811 until/if possible you have his marriage.
One step at a time.
Don't concern your self with Ancestry hints to other parts of the country, if the parish registers for one area do not exist Ancestry hints will send you to the nearest parish with records for no reason other that a person with the same name was born there. Sometimes you have to accept the records don't exist and you simply can't go any further.

[Rosygem]

Thanks Sinann.

Re; John Mullins - the UK census records I've found record his birthplace as Ireland, but no town.
However on the 1851 England census the family is living in Newcastle under Lyme, and Thomas Mullins (father) has his birthplace recorded as Galway, Ireland.

So I then searched on rootsireland for a baptism record for John Mullins circa 1840 (+/- 10 years) and found a baptism from 1837 with parents as Thomas Mullin and Sabina Murray, from the Parish of Dunmore.
I then searched specifically in rootsireland also by just using fathers full name and mothers first name to see what records came up. I found further baptisms with the same parents listed for children Thomas and Mary. The birth years are slightly out from the census records, but I've learnt that's normal.

I then looked into the marriage for Thomas and Sabina.
I only used "Tho Mullin" and "Sabina" in the search fields - no location included. The search brought up only 3x possible records - from 1836, 1848 and 1865, all Co. Galway.
I looked at each one closely, the 1836 marriage was for Thomas Mullin and Sabina Murray.
So I've surmised that this marriage is most likely the correct one, it matches to the baptism records found and meant they got married the year before John was born.
Thus ruling out the 1848 marriage to Sabina Quinn because it would have meant 3 children being born out of wedlock and therefore unable to be baptised in a catholic church, it just seems very unlikely this scenario happening.

I have found that several ancestry trees have this very same family, but with Sabina Quinn as mother so I honestly believe they have connected the wrong person to their trees.

Marriage record, page 41 - https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632038#page/1/mode/1up

John Mullins (Mullen) baptism, page 54 -
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632037#page/1/mode/1up
Thomas Mullins (Mullin) baptism, page 91 -https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632037#page/1/mode/1up
Mary Mullins (Mullen) baptism, page 126 -
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632037#page/1/mode/1up

For the other children, on the 1851 census they have Sally Mullins b. 1847 in Ireland but then on the 1861 census they have Sarah Mullins b. 1848 in Ireland. ***I actually reckon these are the same people but recorded incorrectly. I've searched both names and cannot find any possible baptism from Ireland.

Then the family moved to the UK (still need to find the records) and had Margaret circa 1851 and Daniel circa 1856, both born in Newcastle under Lyme.

I'd really like to find more evidence to prove my tree is correct, as well found out more about Thomas' parents/siblings.

[Sinann]

You can post a link directly to the page
Marriage 1836
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632038#page/41/mode/1up
Marriages usually happen in the brides parish (which of course is often the grooms parish as well)

John July 1837
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632037#page/54/mode/1up
Thomas Oct 1840
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632037#page/91/mode/1up
Mary Dec 1843
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632037#page/126/mode/1up

The address on each baptism is Darray
https://www.townlands.ie/galway/dunmore/dunmore/addergoole/darrary-north/
There is a Darray North and a Darray South but the priest doesn't say which.
That all looks very solid.
I'd agree forget about the Quinn woman.

That book ends March 1846 begins again Dec 1853 in a different hand.
Why wasn't the book continued in 1846, it wasn't finished?
1847 is in a different book with different hand writing and way of keeping the register. That could be from a different church in the same parish.
Impossible to know.
It may however explain why Sally/Sarah is missing.

As the marriage and baptisms are all in the same parish it's likely the home parish of Thomas and Sabina and as it's earliest baptisms are 1833 your are unlikely to find anything earlier on Thomas or Sabina.
Their marriage simply doesn't give enough information to look outside Dunmore parish.

It may be worth looking through the register page by page to check for other children including Sally/Sarah in case of errors on Ancestry transcriptions.

[Sinann]

Just thought of course that book may not have been finished in 1846 due to the famine, things may have got very bad in that area from 1846 to 1853, maybe they even lost their priest.

[Maiden Stone]

Thus ruling out the 1848 marriage to Sabina Quinn because it would have meant 3 children being born out of wedlock and therefore unable to be baptised in a catholic church, it just seems very unlikely this scenario happening.

I have found that several ancestry trees have this very same family, but with Sabina Quinn as mother so I honestly believe they have connected the wrong person to their trees.

Then the family moved to the UK (still need to find the records) and had Margaret circa 1851 and Daniel circa 1856.

I agree with ignoring Sabina Quinn. It's likely that people with those trees on Ancestry have copied from one another or accepted hints as facts.
However, why have you surmised that children born out of wedlock wouldn't have been baptised? (Not that it's relevant in this family.)
The mother's maiden surname should be on Margaret's and Daniel's birth registrations in GRO index. Begin by verifying facts about the family in England, where records exist, before searching in Ireland, where they might not.
What are the records you "still need to find"?

[Maiden Stone]

You said in your opening post that you have a birth certificate for "my 3xG.GD's sister born in 1872 in Newcastle under Lyme". That would make her 35 years younger than your 3xGGF who was born 1837. Did you mean 2xGGF? You can correct a post by clicking "modify".