Author Topic: 1851 Census extract  (Read 1652 times)

Offline Zoe44

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1851 Census extract
« on: Tuesday 03 December 19 23:21 GMT (UK) »
Hi would anybody be able to help confirm a few details on this census extract ..

Its potentially my GG grandmother Ellen Donnell and her family etc but I'm unsure on how or who the James Dyce (or Dice) is in relation to the Census and also the address as
Rev. Andrew Obrien C.C
Ballymitty Wexford.

Theres also a few scribbling at the bottom of the page I'm unable to decipher.

Any help I'd be very grateful
Many thanks!

Online CaroleW

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Re: 1851 Census extract
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 03 December 19 23:27 GMT (UK) »
Which site are you using.  I'm not finding anything on http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/

If possible - please post the link
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Online heywood

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Re: 1851 Census extract
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 03 December 19 23:45 GMT (UK) »
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Online heywood

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Re: 1851 Census extract
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 03 December 19 23:53 GMT (UK) »
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: 1851 Census extract
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 04 December 19 00:17 GMT (UK) »
I think the application was made 1917  by James Dice

He seems to have made other claims, e.g.

http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/reels/c19/007246717/007246717_00285.pdf
He couldn't remember where he'd lived in 1851, hence the various locations and repeat applications.
Cowban

Offline Zoe44

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Re: 1851 Census extract
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 04 December 19 01:04 GMT (UK) »
I think the application was made 1917  by James Dice

He seems to have made other claims, e.g.

http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/reels/c19/007246717/007246717_00285.pdf
He couldn't remember where he'd lived in 1851, hence the various locations and repeat applications.

Thank you for your replies ...

I did a little more digging after posting this and understand it could be to do with pension applications?

Do you mean James Dice gave an address that came up with the Donnell family living at that location and not him?

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: 1851 Census extract
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 04 December 19 01:21 GMT (UK) »

http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/search/cs/details.jsp?id=61571

Its potentially my GG grandmother Ellen Donnell and her family etc but I'm unsure on how or who the James Dyce (or Dice) is in relation to the Census and also the address as
Rev. Andrew Obrien C.C
Ballymitty Wexford.

Theres also a few scribbling at the bottom of the page I'm unable to decipher.

James Dyce/Dyce couldn't remember where he was on census night 1851, when he was a child or whom he was staying with or visiting. I assume that he thought he had a connection to a John Donnelly or Donnell.
Rev. O'Brien may have helped James complete the census search application form. Dealing with officialdom in order to apply for an old age pension was a new thing and some elderly people required assistance in form-filling and then reading and understanding response.

Handwritten notes:
"Report only
Return searched by W 12.2.17  n-f
Frank John & Johanna Donnelly
no trace of applct Sheet 3
       an..
   2/- rectd
Bap note
   W
 c
 34878798
 W....   14.12.17"

My interpretation:
Census returns were searched by a clerk whose forename began with W., using the information supplied by James Dyce. Not found.
Application or applicant's Sheet 3 was missing.
2 shillings fee received.*
Note about James' baptism.

If you can find baptism register entry for James, it may throw some light on a connection to a Donnelly family or some of the people he named on his other application, found by Heywood (Reply #3).
*Correction. Having looked at other applications from James Dyce this may have been 2 shillings returned, as the search for him yielded no result.

 
Cowban

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: 1851 Census extract
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 04 December 19 02:30 GMT (UK) »

I did a little more digging after posting this and understand it could be to do with pension applications?

Do you mean James Dice gave an address that came up with the Donnell family living at that location and not him?

Pension applicants had to prove age. James was born before civil registration of births began in Ireland. He was seeking documentary proof of his existence and age at the time of 1851 census.
Another search request by him in Feb. 1917 was for John & Mary Crosbie who were in Ballingly parish. There was also a search in Ballymitty parish but I couldn't see the form for that.
If you look at the 2nd one found by Heywood (Reply #3), you'll see 3 different surnames as head of households (Dyce, Murphy, Doyle) in 3 parishes. Notes by official on that form, submitted in May 1917:
 "Not found in any family a b or c. See over for report.
The claimant should endeavour to recollect where he resided in 1851 as this Dept. has already made previous searches on his behalf."

James would have been around 4 years old (or thought he was) in 1851, so it's not surprising he didn't know where he was on census night. I get the feeling that he moved around in childhood; possibly due to eviction/death of a parent/parent moving to find work or charity. Names of various heads of households which James supplied may have been relatives or people with whom he lodged or for whom his parent worked. The priest, Rev. O'Brien, may have been trying to help by asking James questions about people and places he remembered.

Although the proportion of people making pension applications was high in Ireland, not every elderly person was eligible. Not all those who intended to apply for a pension needed to request a census search - some had other means of proving age, e.g. entry in baptism register.
Cowban

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: 1851 Census extract
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 04 December 19 03:35 GMT (UK) »
I agree with the previous comments by Maiden Stone, but would add:
The most likely scenario is that James Dice/Dyce was either the son of a labourer who moved from farm to farm, or itinerants (tinkers), who moved from place to place. In either case, you can imagine that it might be hard for him to recollect which family he was with in 1851 - assuming he was even born by then (see below). If this is correct, then he was not a relation of the Donnellys.

This is him on the 1901 and 1911 census returns, and you can see why he needed assistance in making the application, as he was illiterate (where the priest came in). Also, there is obvious uncertainty regarding his age. In 1901 he is said to be 45, but 70 in 1911!
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001291685/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003601344/

He was baptized into the Catholic church, in Taghmon, on 27/5/1866, as a convert.

Addendum:
He was married in 1873, at which time he said he was 22. If this is correct then one can see that his recollection of events in 1851 might be hazy (as in non-existent)!  However, he also says his father was a farmer.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1873/11266/8131728.pdf
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens; CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter; COSGRAVE Castlebridge; CULLEN Lady's Island (LI); CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic; DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack; EDWARDS Wex; FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown; HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex; McGILL Litter; MORRIS Forth Commons; PIERCE LI; POTTS Bennettstown; REDMOND Ballygarrett; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit; SHERIDAN Monadurtlow; SINNOTT Wex; SMYTH Gerry/Oulart; WALSH Kilrane/Wex