Author Topic: Am I clutching at straws.  (Read 741 times)

Offline sunflower

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,002
    • View Profile
Am I clutching at straws.
« on: Sunday 08 December 19 12:41 GMT (UK) »
Would you say these families are connected

For years I have been looking for the baptism of Joseph Kershaw c 1800.  He married Hannah
Breeding in Mansfield in 1820 and he died in Mansfield in  Oct 1849 aged 50.  In 1841 he is aged 45 and said yes to being born in the County.  Looking at the baptisms for Mansfield there seems to be only one other Kershaw family around and that is Samuel & Ann.

Samuel married Ann Jackson in 1804 at Mansfield and it states he his a bachelor.  In the 1831, headcount, census of Mansfield there is only Joseph and family and Samuel and family living there.
Joseph also named his first two children Samuel and Ann.  Would you think that Samuel and Ann were Joseph's parents?  I suppose he could be the illegitimate child of Ann, but nothing found. 
I have a document that states Samuel came from Tintwistle. 

Carol
Derby- Bamford,Slater,Marriott,Lee,Fox,Hopkinson,Hawksley, Furniss, Froggatt, Stodd.
Notts - Breeding, Lacey Marriott ,Kershaw,Chambers,Geeson,Mitchell,Watts,Potts,Slack,Robinson, Cooper
Yorkshire - Potts, Bell, Derbyshire, Kershaw
Worcestershire - Dyson, Summers, Dearn, Jones
Warwickshire - Russon
Leicestershire - Stodd, Sarson, Berridge, Watts, Bradshaw.
Middlesex / Surrey - Markham, Pearce, Kalaher, Barrett

This information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline mrcakey

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
    • View Profile
Re: Am I clutching at straws.
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 08 December 19 13:30 GMT (UK) »
There seems to be too much circumstantial evidence pointing to the idea that he would be the son of Samuel and Ann, but the ages don't really match. In the 1841 census, enumerators were instructed to round the ages of those over 15 down to the nearest 5, so 45 is the youngest Joseph would be. So, if he told the truth about his age in the census, you need to be looking for baptisms from 1791 onwards.

How sure on you on his age at death? Again, following the age in the 1841 census, he should be 52-57.

The other thing I would say is that just because you've not found a baptism record doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If the family wasn't a member of the established churches then records are more sketchy.
Houghton - Lancashire, inc. Manchester
Robertson - Angus
Collinge - Yorkshire, Lancashire, USA
Nedderman - Lancashire
Lane/Fryer - Kent

Offline Jebber

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,267
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Am I clutching at straws.
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 08 December 19 14:06 GMT (UK) »
Ages and birth places can be problematic, you need to look for alternative re odds. Have you looked to see if Samuel left a Will? I would also look for anyone else named  Kershaw who may have left a Will around the relevant period.
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.


Offline sunflower

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,002
    • View Profile
Re: Am I clutching at straws.
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 08 December 19 15:27 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for the replies.

I have Joseph's death certificate and the age is 50.

No Samuel didn't leave a will.  I do have a document dated 1810 regarding Samuel and is brother Thomas. It does state that Thomas arrived in Mansfield in 1801 from Tintwistle.

Thanks
Carol

 
Derby- Bamford,Slater,Marriott,Lee,Fox,Hopkinson,Hawksley, Furniss, Froggatt, Stodd.
Notts - Breeding, Lacey Marriott ,Kershaw,Chambers,Geeson,Mitchell,Watts,Potts,Slack,Robinson, Cooper
Yorkshire - Potts, Bell, Derbyshire, Kershaw
Worcestershire - Dyson, Summers, Dearn, Jones
Warwickshire - Russon
Leicestershire - Stodd, Sarson, Berridge, Watts, Bradshaw.
Middlesex / Surrey - Markham, Pearce, Kalaher, Barrett

This information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Annie65115

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,341
  • Jane Bellot, sister to my 5gt-grannie!
    • View Profile
Re: Am I clutching at straws.
« Reply #4 on: Monday 09 December 19 15:01 GMT (UK) »
Thomas Kershaw (?Samuel's brother?) and Jane also had 2 children baptised in Mansfield- James Hardman (1807) and John (1809). There's no marriage for Thomas and Jane on the Notts FHS disc - perhaps they married before they came to Notts?

Could it be that your Joseph was born before the family moved to Nottinghamshire, and is shown as born IC on the 1841 census either from a lazy or mistaken enumerator, or from Joseph having no memories of his actual birthplace?

Familysearch has several Kershaw baptisms at an independent chapel in Tintwistle, but none that I can see for Samuel, Thomas or Joseph. Where did folk from Tintwistle go if they weren't noncon?

Edited to add: This must be the marriage for Thomas and Jane, given the surname:
Thomas Kershaw + Jane Hardman, Manchester, 23 Nov 1806 or 7 --- this is from FS, no image available, and isn't on lancsOPC so I can't see further details.
Bradbury (Sedgeley, Bilston, Warrington)
Cooper (Sedgeley, Bilston)
Kilner/Kilmer (Leic, Notts)
Greenfield (Liverpool)
Holyland (Leic)
Pryce/Price (Welshpool, Liverpool)
Rawson (Leicester)
Upton (Desford, Leics)
Partrick (Vera and George, Leicester)
Marshall (Cheshire/Leicester)

Offline larkspur

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,920
  • Tracing myself back to better people.Or maybe not!
    • View Profile
Re: Am I clutching at straws.
« Reply #5 on: Monday 09 December 19 15:35 GMT (UK) »
The only marriage I can find for Hannah Breeding and Joseph Kershaw is in East Markham= not Mansfield= on 8 Aug 1820. https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/58184cd6e93790eb7f8b5377/hannah-breeding-joseph-kershaw-marriage-nottinghamshire-east-markham-1820-08-08?locale=en
AREA, Nottinghamshire. Lincolnshire. Staffordshire. Leicestershire, Morayshire.
Paternal Line--An(t)(c)liff(e).Faulkner. Mayfield. Cant. Davison. Caunt. Trigg. Rawding. Buttery. Rayworth. Pepper. Otter. Whitworth. Gray. Calder. Laing. Wright. Jackson. Taylor.
Maternal Line--Linsey. Spicer. Corns. Judson. Greensmith. Steel. Woodford. Ellis. Wyan. Callis. Warriner. Rawlin. Merrin. Vale. Summerfield. Cartwright.
Husbands-Beckett. Heald. Pilkington. Arnold. Hall. Willows. Dring. Newcomb. Hawley.

Offline Kay99

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,108
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Am I clutching at straws.
« Reply #6 on: Monday 09 December 19 15:47 GMT (UK) »
Hannah Breeding is listed on the census as born Bothamsall, Nottinghamshire next door to East Markham, so maybe she went home to marry  :-\

Kay

Offline sunflower

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,002
    • View Profile
Re: Am I clutching at straws.
« Reply #7 on: Monday 09 December 19 16:34 GMT (UK) »
Thanks very for your replies.

I do have the information on Joseph and Hannah and their children.  It's the connection between Joseph and Samuel that I am stuck on.

Annie - Apart from ordering a few wills on Kershaws of Tintwistle I haven't really delved too deeply into the Tintwistle families. I am hoping to find a connection between them.


Carol
Derby- Bamford,Slater,Marriott,Lee,Fox,Hopkinson,Hawksley, Furniss, Froggatt, Stodd.
Notts - Breeding, Lacey Marriott ,Kershaw,Chambers,Geeson,Mitchell,Watts,Potts,Slack,Robinson, Cooper
Yorkshire - Potts, Bell, Derbyshire, Kershaw
Worcestershire - Dyson, Summers, Dearn, Jones
Warwickshire - Russon
Leicestershire - Stodd, Sarson, Berridge, Watts, Bradshaw.
Middlesex / Surrey - Markham, Pearce, Kalaher, Barrett

This information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Annie65115

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,341
  • Jane Bellot, sister to my 5gt-grannie!
    • View Profile
Re: Am I clutching at straws.
« Reply #8 on: Monday 09 December 19 17:27 GMT (UK) »
I see that Samuel was a bookkeeper at the cotton mill, and a librarian at the Mansfield Mechanics Artisans' library, so an educated and literate man. But Joseph was a labourer.

OTOH there is definitely a similar pattern of names between Samuel's chldren and Joseph's; I note you say you have these details, Sunflower, but for the benefit of other helpers, here they are:

Samuel and Anne's children:
John
Mary
Samuel
Thomas
Elizabeth Ellen
Elizabeth

Joseph and Hannah's children:
Samuel
Anne
John
Ellen
Henry
Anne
Elizabeth
Sarah
Harriet
Bradbury (Sedgeley, Bilston, Warrington)
Cooper (Sedgeley, Bilston)
Kilner/Kilmer (Leic, Notts)
Greenfield (Liverpool)
Holyland (Leic)
Pryce/Price (Welshpool, Liverpool)
Rawson (Leicester)
Upton (Desford, Leics)
Partrick (Vera and George, Leicester)
Marshall (Cheshire/Leicester)