Scottish Stillbirths Records

[ikas]

Thanks Annie. Unfortunately Dundee not Glasgow. Still investigating best way to search their archives. Told a date (year) would be a great help which we don't know.

Not with parents. We think! it was not a burial with headstone but a plaque or similar.

[Guy Etchells]

In England and Wales there was a certificate that death is not required to be registered that would be supplied to the person organising the burial but I believe in Scotland there was no equivalent until after 2011.
I could be wrong (and I  would be very happy to be proved wrong) but I believe it was impossible to legally bury a foetus (i.e. a stillborn prior to 28 weeks)  in a grave prior to 2011 there was a costly Procurator Fiscal Investigation to allow disposal by cremation but not by burial.

Cheers
Guy

[Forfarian]

I am told we require the date of the stillbirth which we do not have. I had hoped to get that from stillbirth register but not looking likely from statement on website.

No. As far as I know no-one is allowed access to the register of stillbirths.

I have found a few burials of stillborn babies in family graves, but you would need to know where the baby was buried to find that, and I imagine that's what you are trying to get to?

[Guy Etchells]

I am told we require the date of the stillbirth which we do not have. I had hoped to get that from stillbirth register but not looking likely from statement on website.

No. As far as I know no-one is allowed access to the register of stillbirths.

I have found a few burials of stillborn babies in family graves, but you would need to know where the baby was buried to find that, and I imagine that's what you are trying to get to?

Yes there are burials of numerous stillborns but the problem in this case is the foetus was under 24 weeks which means the stillbirth would not be registered and no disposal certificate could be delivered to the person arranging the burial.
The problem is not whether stillborns may be buried but the age of the foetus when he/she died.
In the 1960s the foetus had to survive to 28 weeks to be recognised as a stillborn that term has been lowered now..
I do not really want to discuss the terminology used but even the almost bland term disposal certificate, used to allow a body to be buried or cremated displays the lack of compassion shown at the time the legislation was drawn up.
Another instance of lack of compassion was the fact that until 1919 an illegitimate person was illegitimate all his/her life and the word was recorded on his/her death registration entry.

Cheers
Guy

[Forfarian]

Another instance of lack of compassion was the fact that until 1919 an illegitimate person was illegitimate all his/her life and the word was recorded on his/her death registration entry.

Except in Scotland, where an illegitimate child was legitimated by the subsequent marriage of its parents, provided that the parents were free to marry one another at the time of the child's conception.

[Guy Etchells]

Another instance of lack of compassion was the fact that until 1919 an illegitimate person was illegitimate all his/her life and the word was recorded on his/her death registration entry.

Except in Scotland, where an illegitimate child was legitimated by the subsequent marriage of its parents, provided that the parents were free to marry one another at the time of the child's conception.

Not according to https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk › files › research › chapter-on-oprs-from-jtb

See page 10 section 3.5

In England & Wales the law was changed in 1926 then again in 1957 but these two Acts did not apply to Scotland
Cheers
Guy

[Forfarian]

Which particular section of https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files/research/chapter-on-oprs-from-jtb.pdf, Guy? I have just re-read it and have not found there any reference to legitimation by parents' subsequent marriage. Section 3.5 is on Page 8 and refers to mortcloths.

See also https://www.legalcrystal.com/dictionary/definition/99462/legitimation-per-subsequens-matrimonium which says, "Legitimation per subsequens matrimonium. The legitimation of a bastard by the subsequent marriage of his parents. Formerly not recognized by the Law of England, though always allowed under the Civil Law in Scotland and most European countries and many British colonies. Now recognised in England and Wales by the Legitimacy Act, 1926 (16 & 17 Geo. 5, c. 60), as from 1st January, 1927."

From https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/legmatsub.htm: As said above, legitimation by subsequent marriage is not so much a feature of canon law as it is of Roman law. Judicial systems influenced by Roman law (as was canon law) incorporated many of its features. This is true particularly of legal systems in Italy, Germany, France, and Scotland.

From House of Lords Hansard, 16 November 1967. "The Law of Scotland has always accepted the principle that a child born before the marriage of its parents is legitimated when the marriage takes place.  But to this principle the law admits a major exception. If the parents, because of some impediment to marriage, could not have married at the time of the child's conception or (though there is some doubt about this) at the time of its birth, then their subsequent marriage does not legitimate the child. The most common impediment is, of course, that at the time one at least of the parents was married to someone else. The Legitimacy Act 1959 removed the comparable bar to legitimation under the law of England and Wales. The Bill removes the bar for Scotland.." https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/1967-11-16/debates/b192c542-07b4-44aa-bc9a-662ef44dba1e/Legitimation(Scotland)BillHl

So it looks as if the reason why the 1926 and 1957 (or was it the Legitimacy Act 1959?) Acts to which you refer did not apply to Scotland was that those Acts were to bring England and Wales into line with the existing practice in Scotland and other European countries. However the 1959 Act went further than Scots Law because it allowed legitimation when there had been an impediment to the parents' marriage, and the Legitimation (Scotland) Bill of 1967 removed this anomaly.

[Guy Etchells]

I see the problem there are a number of pdfs with seemingly the same url.
It is the second file with the title
The statutory registers of births, deaths and marriages from ...
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk › chapter-on-statutory-registers-from-jtb

You were looking at The Old Parochial Registers from Jock Tamson's bairns: a ...

I have uploaded the section here
http://anguline.co.uk/Illegitimate.jpg
Cheers
Guy

[Forfarian]

Unless, of course, you were legitimated by the subsequent marriage of your parents, in which case you were, in effect, deemed not to have been illegitimate in the first place. You may choose not to believe legalcrystal or heraldica, but Hansard, as already quoted, states quite specifically. "The Law of Scotland has always accepted the principle that a child born before the marriage of its parents is legitimated when the marriage takes place". One can hardly state the situation more clearly than that, and I think the House of Lords Hansard must be regarded as authoritative when it makes a statement of this sort.