Author Topic: Samson Williams/Boswell, Nelson Williams  (Read 1374 times)

Offline Talacharn

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Re: Samson Williams/Boswell, Nelson Williams
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday 16 June 20 11:22 BST (UK) »
With family history, I gather so much, but then have to sort the wheat from chaff. That 1939 Register entry I had forgotten about, then found the basics. Only when you had difficulty, I remembered my difficulty and how I worked around it. No one else was with him in 1939, as there are no redacted entries, only him and his ‘wife’. He is also in the Living Van with Elizabeth and children, though from the dates, there should be more children than spaces redacted; where are they?

I went to Pembrey this morning and there is a huge notice on the gate not to visit, unless you quickly want to leave flowers, so I respected that and did not go in. Using Family search, I cannot find any burials for a Daniel Evans around 1948. Her burial is listed online and if he was there as well, it too would be online. There are plenty of Boswells living and even dying at Pembrey, it must have been a special meeting place for travellers. When did they go to Pembroke, when he died, or did they live in the van for a while?

If Nantycaws is regarding rations, was he trying to get double? There was also a woman there, with both claiming to be married. From past experience of this family, being married probably does not mean to each other. With a stigma about living together, it would be easier to say you were married. But also in traveller culture, they did not marry formally, but still considered it a marriage in the eyes of the Lord. I believe the 1939 Register is different to a census. It listed those who lived there whether they were present or not. For a census, it was only those in the household when the enumerator visited. If Daniel was not in Natycaws that day, it could explain why he was listed with a different date of birth, as it was given by someone else.

How do you know Daniel's great grandmother was Lucy Boswell?

Offline Daisyday75

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Re: Samson Williams/Boswell, Nelson Williams
« Reply #28 on: Tuesday 16 June 20 14:46 BST (UK) »
That's a shame you couldn't go into Pembrey church. You have a good point about the 1939 register not being like a census. I was still treating it the same in that he was living with them.  There was a stigma about them not being married I remember that with my Nan. I know Elizabeth was born in Tumble as have all her birth certificate etc. She was from Welsh speaking family of Colliers. She had a daughter when she was young that I believe was called Mair or Myra and from what i can find that Daughter was written on census as being her mothers child instead. I don't know if that daughter was in the living van in 1939 I don't think she was as I don't think my Nan grew up with her as such. The eldest daughter of Daniel and Elizabeth Dorothy Gloria was given away to a relative and was only brought back at the age of 11 or 12. So this would account for her not being on the census.  I have always wondered why she was given away as they went on to have 9 more children. From the way Elizabeth has been described to me she was a loving mother so i don't think she would've given Dorothy away lightly. Was it because Daniel wasn't with her officially so she couldn't bring her up??
I have used the census, baptism and marriage records and Eldorife Mother is Lucy Boswell. I've also DNA matched on ancestry to other family members so I'm sure i'm on the correct track. Eldorife father was Edward Buckland.
On my tree Lee, Boswell and Buckland intermarry all different generations then all of a sudden you get Edwin Evans!  That's why I'm sure he is Boswell or Lee....

Offline Daisyday75

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Re: Samson Williams/Boswell, Nelson Williams
« Reply #29 on: Tuesday 16 June 20 14:55 BST (UK) »
So is Daniel on 1939 register somewhere else as well in Nantycaws?  He's not with Martha Wlilliams.
I just checked and looks like 6 children on 1939 registar although 5 blanked out. From the dates of birth I have of the children there were 7 living so it would be Dorothy Gloria that isn't on there..


Offline Talacharn

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Re: Samson Williams/Boswell, Nelson Williams
« Reply #30 on: Tuesday 16 June 20 15:51 BST (UK) »
I have not found Martha Jane on the 1939 Register. There are some that could be right, mainly in Pembrokeshire, but alone, nothing yet with a Daniel. The Living Van and Nantycaws are the only two where I know, or suspect, Daniel is living. Searching the GRO, I found 8 children born before 1939 and there are 5 redacted, so taking Gloria out of that sum, I still have 2 more; Daniel, Ira, Dawn, Violet, John, Margaret and Sally. Violet and John were both 1935, twins?

Welsh was the language of the mines, so if you only spoke English, learning Welsh quickly would save your life.

There seems little doubt that Edwin changed his name, but it has to be before the census records, as by then he is Evans. Then there are his children. Their baptism records could be key, were they Evans, Lee, Boswell, or something else. If they are all Evans the change had to take place before.

ADDED: The Martha Jane I cannot find is the one married to Aran. I get confused with the two. Martha Jane that married to Daniel was living at 18 Blue Stree, Carmarthen.

Offline Talacharn

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Re: Samson Williams/Boswell, Nelson Williams
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday 16 June 20 22:01 BST (UK) »
I found this first on Family Search and then looked on the GRO. It fits with Edwin being 1-2 years older and mmn Lee makes me think it is the closest found to date. I looked between 1837 and 1845 for Edward/Edwin Boswell and also tried Boss in England and Wales; no other registration came close. I could not find a baptism for parents and occupation, but at least there is a birth registration/certificate. It does not fit with Edwin being born in Brecon/Radnorshire, but that might have been a lie in giving the impression he was from Wales.
Edward Boswell . mmn Lee . Oct-Dec 1837 . Oxford . Volume 16 . Page 76


Offline Daisyday75

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Re: Samson Williams/Boswell, Nelson Williams
« Reply #32 on: Wednesday 17 June 20 11:05 BST (UK) »
Just been looking at what I have for Daniel's children and you have ones that I didn't..
I have Dorothy Gloria 1929, Daniel Edwin 1931, Ira 1933, Dawn 1934, Violet 1935, Kenneth 1936 (who was amended on 1939 register to David Kenneth 20.9.63), Margaret 1937, Stanley 1940, Pamela 1942 and Subie 1946.  I knew there was a twin girl but wasn't sure who's twin she was. This was probably Sally.  I believe she died aged 12 after being knocked down by a car??? I don't know who John is?
I will see if I can find Aran's Martha on Ancestry and let you know.
That Edward mmn Lee could be our Edwin? I have Subie Lees siblings being born Hereford, Worcestershire, Shropshire, Staffordshire and Gloucestershire so they were moving around a lot. I put in +/- 5rs 1840 for Edwin Evans, Lee and Boswell on ancestry. Can't pin anything down that would be a certain match for birth record or baptism

Offline Daisyday75

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Re: Samson Williams/Boswell, Nelson Williams
« Reply #33 on: Wednesday 17 June 20 12:15 BST (UK) »
Just found an Edwin Evans on ancestry birth record 1845 Knighton, Radnorshire (I think that is about 10 miles from Beguildy?).  3rd Quarter Volume 26, page 239 but on ancestry it doesn't give me anymore information about mmn or anything.  I would have to buy the birth certificate to see...

Offline Talacharn

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Re: Samson Williams/Boswell, Nelson Williams
« Reply #34 on: Wednesday 17 June 20 12:38 BST (UK) »
I checked on the GRO and that Edwin Evans is not listed. No results found +/- 1 year.

I look at the list of Boswells in Wales on Romany Genes and wonder how many are accurate. If the location was taken from census records, where born might not be the case, when some originated from England. Although the website mentions moving from England to Wales; and changing names, finding a move and name change is difficult, as so little has been written down. The only evidence I found regarding name changes were from newspaper articles and Boswell becoming Evans shows that change happened. I had thought, Boswells and Coopers only took the Williams name. Although Edwin says his birthplace is Brecon/Radnorshire, if he arrived there young, or he chose to use a Welsh place name, I do not feel the census records can be trusted. Like his name, it could be changed to make it sound better.

To reach Wales from Oxford, it is across to Gloucester and then through the Forest of Dean (what is now the M4), or up and across, north of the Brecon Beacons to reach Brecon and Radnorshire.

I have looked for Edward/Edwin, Evans/Lee and now Boswell. From all, that one jumps out, but there needs to be more evidence. Without a baptism, getting the birth certificate may be the only way; and alas more expense. A Boswell, with mmn Lee, makes me think they are travellers. Oxford would be Edwin’s birth place, then once married, his children are from Gloucester to mid-Wales. Even once moved, I imagine family would still be in the Oxford Gloucester areas. From parents, it could open up early census records. He may be the youngest as I did not find other Boswell with mmn Lee. Or at that point, they moved to Wales and became Evans.

Of the children you list, 3 of them were born after 1939 so could not be on the register. Dorothy Gloria Roberts . 1929; Daniel E Roberts . 1931; Ira Urenda Roberts . 1933; Dawn E Roberts . 1934; John E Roberts . 1935; Violet M Roberts . 1935; David Kenneth Roberts . 1936; Margaret L Roberts . 1937 and Sally P Roberts . 1938.

Offline Talacharn

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Re: Samson Williams/Boswell, Nelson Williams
« Reply #35 on: Wednesday 17 June 20 12:47 BST (UK) »
I tried the GRO with Knighton Volume and Page, it is not there. Maybe a mistake by Ancestry? Or the GRO! You could contact the GRO with reference to see if it is there, but not on their database.