Author Topic: Elizabeth Maria de Redder - did she die?  (Read 993 times)

Offline torre

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Elizabeth Maria de Redder - did she die?
« on: Tuesday 14 January 20 19:56 GMT (UK) »
Please can someone have a look at the enclosed facts and tell me what I’m missing.

I have William de Redder 1814-1881 marrying Elizabeth Herron 1820-1891.

They have sixteen children including two sets of twins, most died very young.

Like a lot of people, at that time, when a child died, they named another child with the same name. (They had four sons named William)
So far so good!

I found one daughter Elizabeth Maria 1846 -1849, and another Elizabeth Maria 1849-1855.
I sent off for both death certificates.

The first Elizabeth Maria died 24 Jan 1849. Aged 3 years. She died of croupe (certified) (I think that was diphtheria) and the death was registered by Christiana Hills (Present at the death) This could have been a nurse as she died of a contagious disease in South Shields Union.
She is described as the daughter of William de Redder Master Mariner

The second Elizabeth Maria died 2 Jan 1855 aged 5 Years, in Castleacre, Norfolk. She died of Diseased spleen of long standing and bleeding from the stomach. (Certified)  She was described as the daughter of William de Redder, Captain of a collier
The death was registered by Mary Drew, present at the death. (Mary Drew was the children’s grandmother).

I thought this was sorted until I was contacted on Ancestry by someone who says he is descended from the second Elizabeth Maria.
I’ve tried to find another birth of an Elizabeth Maria de Redder with as many variations of her surname I can think of, without success.

The ‘second’ Elizabeth Maria married Henry Johnson in 1873 in South Shields. It was a double wedding, as her brother William Anthony married Henry’s sister, Margaret.

I don't understand how she can be married in 1873 when she died in 1855.

Please can someone look at this with fresh eyes and tell me what I’m missing.

Many thanks



Festorazzi in Kent and Italy
Pottinger in London
Mitchell in Hampshire
Rogers in Hampshire
Paddington in Hampshire
Latter in Kent
Langridge in Kent
Hook(e) in London and Devon
Kirk in Norfolk and Yorkshire

Offline avm228

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Re: Elizabeth Maria de Redder - did she die?
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 14 January 20 20:03 GMT (UK) »
Obviously someone who died in 1855 didn’t marry in 1873.

What was the age of the 1873 bride Elizabeth at marriage and in later records (census, death etc)?
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline avm228

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Re: Elizabeth Maria de Redder - did she die?
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 14 January 20 20:09 GMT (UK) »
Well, the South Shields de Redder family do seem to have had a relevant daughter who survived.

1851 census: Elizabeth Maria de Redder, aged 1
1861 census: Elizabeth de Redder, aged 11
1871 census: Elizabeth de Redder, aged 21
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline torre

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Re: Elizabeth Maria de Redder - did she die?
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 14 January 20 20:11 GMT (UK) »
Thank you so much for coming back to me.

I had found Elizabeth in the 1861 census, which I find even more confusing.

Festorazzi in Kent and Italy
Pottinger in London
Mitchell in Hampshire
Rogers in Hampshire
Paddington in Hampshire
Latter in Kent
Langridge in Kent
Hook(e) in London and Devon
Kirk in Norfolk and Yorkshire


Offline avm228

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Re: Elizabeth Maria de Redder - did she die?
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 14 January 20 20:16 GMT (UK) »
It’s certainly a puzzle. Was there a Norfolk link - did Mary Drew live there?

Perhaps Elizabeth was mistakenly certified dead and staged a miraculous recovery!

What were the death and registration dates on the 1855 certificate?
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline torre

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Re: Elizabeth Maria de Redder - did she die?
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 14 January 20 20:22 GMT (UK) »
Mary Drew did live in Norfolk. William de Redder was born there.

The 1855 death certificate states date of death 2 Jan 1855 and registered 3 Jan 1855
Festorazzi in Kent and Italy
Pottinger in London
Mitchell in Hampshire
Rogers in Hampshire
Paddington in Hampshire
Latter in Kent
Langridge in Kent
Hook(e) in London and Devon
Kirk in Norfolk and Yorkshire

Offline avm228

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Re: Elizabeth Maria de Redder - did she die?
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 14 January 20 20:30 GMT (UK) »
So a very short gap between the certified death and registration. Perhaps she was actually in a coma?
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline jonw65

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Re: Elizabeth Maria de Redder - did she die?
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 14 January 20 20:56 GMT (UK) »
Buried as Maria De Redder at Castle Acre, 5 January 1855.
Age 6
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6LTB-9Q?i=500&cc=1416598&cat=1026201

Offline avm228

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Re: Elizabeth Maria de Redder - did she die?
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 14 January 20 20:58 GMT (UK) »
Buried as Maria De Redder at Castle Acre, 5 January 1855.
Age 6
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6LTB-9Q?i=500&cc=1416598&cat=1026201

Well that eliminates the coma theory!
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)