Author Topic: Thomas Gardner/Gardiner/Gardener  (Read 3341 times)

Offline trish1120

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 28,247
  • Happy me
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas Gardner/Gardiner/Gardener
« Reply #18 on: Thursday 20 February 20 11:47 GMT (UK) »
Back to the drawing board!

1821 Bapt of Thomas has Parents abode as Chartham (Chatham, Kent, I presume?)
Father a Traveller

1861 in Chatham. Kent we have;
Amos Lee   58 Head Mar Cutler born Chatham
Susan Lee   64 Wife
Deoleges Lee 14 Nephew
Amos Kelly 6  Nephew

Likely Bapt 13 Sep 1801, Chartham, Kent to THOMAS/ROSE as AMUS
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Cummins, Miskelly(IRELAND + NZ) ,Leggett (SFK + NFK ENGLAND + NZ),Purdy ( NBL ENGLAND + NZ ), Shaw YKS, LANCs + NZ), Holdsworth(LINCS +LANCS + NZ), Moloney, Dean, Fitzpatrick, ( County Down,IRE) Newby(NBL.ENG, Costello(IRE), Ivers, Murray(IRE),Reay(NBL.ENG) Reid (BERW.SCOTLAND)

Offline WHo.am.i

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 3
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas Gardner/Gardiner/Gardener
« Reply #19 on: Monday 03 August 20 19:53 BST (UK) »
Hello, I’ve just come across your original message and thread and would be interested to exchange information.

Having researched the Lee family for 20+ years trying to establish my own Lee line I have come across various others, the above mentioned Thomas and Amos Lee being two of them.

Amos Lee son of Thomas Lee and Rose Kemp / Scamp baptised at Chartham, Kent 13 Sept 1801 was the father of Thomas Lee baptised in Playden Sussex 15 July 1821.

Amos’ ‘wife’ and Thomas’ mother it is assumed was Mary Gardiner born c1799.

This would explain why Thomas baptised in 1821 used the surname Gardiner when marrying Mary Riley in 1841 and Lee later in life, similar Thomas’ sibling, Flora, who used the surname Gardiner and Lee.

Thomas married Mary Riley who later used the surname Whale when registering her children is an example of using the surnames of both mother (Riley) and father (Whale) who may or may not have been legally married.

Thomas and Mary’s son Henry William / William Henry’s baptism was recorded at Prittlewell, Essex as was their daughter Emily whose birth was registered also, after which the pair seem to have separated and ‘married’ other people.

Thomas began having children with Eunice Lee daughter of Henry Lee and Ruth Powell, baptised at Sandhurst, Kent in 1828 finally officially marrying in 1879 at Beckenham, Kent, Thomas citing he was a widower, suggesting by 1879 his wife Mary was dead.

Mary ‘married’ Henry / David Lee son of Joshua and Johanna Lee who was baptised at Buckland, Kent in 1821.

Both Thomas and Mary had various other children each with their new spouses and can with some ease be traced in census records and through the baptism / registering of the births of their children.

Amos baptised in 1801 mentioned above died DQ 1869 at Croydon where he is also buried.

His wife Mary ‘Gardiner’ is perhaps the Mary Ann Lee buried at Northfleet, Kent 19 Aug 1842 aged 43 the death registered in North Aylesford SQ 1842.

The Amos Lee seen on the census with Noah and baptising children with Aves / Avis is not the same person as above. This Amos was baptised in 1819 at Winchelsea, Sussex the son of Christopher and Lucy Lee.

It is currently and may remain so, not known the relationship between Amos baptised in 1801 to the Christopher and Lucy Lee who baptised their son Amos in 1819 however it has been suggested by other researchers that Lucy, Christopher’s wife was the daughter of Thomas Lee and Rose Kemp / Scamp or another relation related to this couple in some way.

Christopher mentioned above was buried at Northfleet, Kent 19 July 1842 baptised in 1801 at Newenden, Kent the son of another Christopher and Lucy Lee.

Offline moseslee

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 18
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas Gardner/Gardiner/Gardener
« Reply #20 on: Monday 12 July 21 15:08 BST (UK) »
Thank you WHo.am.i your post is just what I was looking for.  :)

I'm connected via Thomas Lee, being my ggggg Grandad. Wondering now if my Moses Lee, son of Amos, could have gone by Gardiner/Gardener? As I'm struggling to find his marriage, though i've seen many trees with it, but cant find actual proof.

Cooper, Lee, Ransley & Russell
Hawkers, Horse Dealers, Travellers,

Hampshire, Kent, London, Middlesex, Sussex, Surrey, Swansea

Offline WHo.am.i

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 3
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas Gardner/Gardiner/Gardener
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday 04 August 21 15:30 BST (UK) »
Hello, I’ve not found any evidence that Moses used the surname Gardiner.


Offline WHo.am.i

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 3
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas Gardner/Gardiner/Gardener
« Reply #22 on: Wednesday 04 August 21 15:32 BST (UK) »
I wouldn’t take any notice of trees on Ancestry as most folk simply copy and paste without looking for the information themselves. Moses never legally married Counciletta.

Offline moseslee

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 18
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas Gardner/Gardiner/Gardener
« Reply #23 on: Friday 25 March 22 17:01 GMT (UK) »
Moses never legally married Counciletta......that explains why I've not found any real evidence....
Many thanks WHo.am.i

Now just need to find Councilettas surname, I've seen it mentioned she's the daughter of Job Lee, but his Counciletta died in infancy with her twin, according to FREEBDM so I'm thinking Cooper as that's the only Counciletta I can find born around 1844 as stated on at least 1 census, and in Sussex.....thanks again for your help 👍
Cooper, Lee, Ransley & Russell
Hawkers, Horse Dealers, Travellers,

Hampshire, Kent, London, Middlesex, Sussex, Surrey, Swansea

Offline findem

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,779
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas Gardner/Gardiner/Gardener
« Reply #24 on: Tuesday 12 April 22 04:35 BST (UK) »
This won't help you one bit I'm afraid but a name caught my eye, Counciletta.

I have a Romany great aunt by marriage, Councellatta Flack, she married into my Essex Searles line, your Counciletta is only the second person I've come across with that name, my Concellatta married Arthur Searles, he wasn't a Romany.

Regards.
Concentrating currently on:
Essex: Card, Harris, Stowell, Theobald/Tibbles & Turner.
Norfolk: Beale, Cork & Dalton.
Yorkshire: Oswald Sturdy birth/baptism c1708, Oswald where the devil are you?

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline moseslee

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 18
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas Gardner/Gardiner/Gardener
« Reply #25 on: Tuesday 12 April 22 10:17 BST (UK) »
This won't help you one bit I'm afraid but a name caught my eye, Counciletta.

I have a Romany great aunt by marriage, Councellatta Flack, she married into my Essex Searles line, your Counciletta is only the second person I've come across with that name, my Concellatta married Arthur Searles, he wasn't a Romany.

Regards.

Hi findem,

Thanks for your reply, it's always good to hear of other Counciletta's. I've 3 I know of in my family tree, and have found several others usually with a variation of spelling (that's the hard part as it's always different on certificates and census etc) I'm sure I've come across your Counciletta, several of my Roma married in to non Roma families too.  I'll order the birth certificate, but not sure that will help me much as it won't prove she married Moses Lee.....I'll keep on searching. Good luck with your searching 
Cooper, Lee, Ransley & Russell
Hawkers, Horse Dealers, Travellers,

Hampshire, Kent, London, Middlesex, Sussex, Surrey, Swansea

Offline findem

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,779
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas Gardner/Gardiner/Gardener
« Reply #26 on: Wednesday 13 April 22 03:22 BST (UK) »
I first came across Councellatta when I had just started my Family Tree, I went to a church yard in Great Leighs Essex, with my wife and mother, it's where I suspected some of my Searles might be buried, I found the grave of my maternal grandmother's brother Arthur Searles.  With him was his wife Councellatta, I said "oh Arthur married a Spanish lady", then my mother who had met her explained she was a Romany.  Apparently Councie couldn't tell the time from clocks but when Arthur came home from work his meal was always ready for him  I did a bit of research on Councie with the help of a lady who runs the Flack name in the Guild of One Name Studies and on a trip back to the UK I met up with Councies daughter.

My mother had a high regard for Councie and my mother was at the age where elderly people tend to 'call a spade a spade' and according to Councie's daughter the feeling was mutual.

Regards.
Concentrating currently on:
Essex: Card, Harris, Stowell, Theobald/Tibbles & Turner.
Norfolk: Beale, Cork & Dalton.
Yorkshire: Oswald Sturdy birth/baptism c1708, Oswald where the devil are you?

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk