Author Topic: Mary Holyland/Mary Carmichael Smyth  (Read 3121 times)

Offline Annie65115

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Mary Holyland/Mary Carmichael Smyth
« on: Friday 14 February 20 19:03 GMT (UK) »
James Carmichael Smyth was apparently a Royal physician at the end of the 18th century; he married Mary Holyland, and it's Mary that I'm trying to trace.

According to the Peerage, Mary was the daughter of Thomas Holyland of Bromley and Mary Elton, married James in Gretna Green in 1775, and died in May 1806. Here's that link:
http://www.thepeerage.com/p20538.htm#i205375

However, a rather lovely portrait shows Mrs James Carmichael Smyth with a date of death of1803:
https://www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/129202/mrs-james-carmichael-smyth-died-1803

Mary's mother left a will which was proved in 1783, when she (Mum) was living in Westrop, Buckinghamshire.  Mary's mother had been widowed and remarried Thomas Wilkinson; the only child she mentions in the will was her daughter Mary, wife of Dr James Carmichael Smyth (so I know this is the correct Mary). She also mentions her sister Elizabeth Elton, which ties in with her having been Mary Elton when she married Mary's Holyland father.

And this is where it comes a bit unstuck. Holyland-Elton marriages are not exactly common. I cannot find a Thomas Holyland of Bromley, despite what the peerage page says. I do however have a marriage between Christopher Holyland, a musician/vintner of London, and a Mary Elton. They married on 2 Sept 1749 in Hemel Hempstead (though I've only seen a transcript). Christopher died in London in 1769 in the parish of St Margaret Moses. as far as I know Christopher and Mary had 2 surviving children; Charles born 1752 (no burial found) and Mary, baptised 1760. I've also got a marriage for Mary Holyland, a widow of St Andrew Holborn, to Thomas Wilkinson in Greenwich in 1774.

So I think that Mary Carmichael Smyth was the daughter of Christopher Holyland, and GOK who Thomas Holyland of Bromley was! She would have been v young when married but maybe that's what Gretna was for  ::)

Can anyone see major flaws in this argument?

Can anyone find any of the following, which might help ( I don't have a sub for Scotland's People):

1. marriage in Gretna of James Carmichael Smyth and Mary Holyland
2. burial of Mary Carmichael Smyth to confirm date and hopefully her age too
3. burial of Mary's mother Mary Wilkinson, in 1782/3, probably in Buckinghamshire/Westrop?

I know the above is quite wordy but I'd be grateful to anyone who's got this far! Thank you!
Bradbury (Sedgeley, Bilston, Warrington)
Cooper (Sedgeley, Bilston)
Kilner/Kilmer (Leic, Notts)
Greenfield (Liverpool)
Holyland (Anywhere and everywhere, also Holiland Holliland Hollyland)
Pryce/Price (Welshpool, Liverpool)
Rawson (Leicester)
Upton (Desford, Leics)
Partrick (Vera and George, Leicester)
Marshall (Westmorland, Cheshire/Leicester)

Offline Annie65115

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Re: Mary Holyland/Mary Carmichael Smyth
« Reply #1 on: Friday 14 February 20 19:41 GMT (UK) »
There is an marriage announcement for Mary Holyland and Dr Carmichael Smyth; it just says, "Married; Dr Carmichael Smyth, one of the physicians to the Middlesex Hospital, to Miss Maria Holyland, of Bromley". Doesn't give Mary's father's name or the place of the wedding. Bath Chronicle and Weekly Gazette 14 December 1775

Mary's mother remarried in Greenwich. Mary's stepfather was Thomas Wilkinson..Maybe facts got confused and combined the stepfather and the real father to produce "Thomas Holyland"??
Bradbury (Sedgeley, Bilston, Warrington)
Cooper (Sedgeley, Bilston)
Kilner/Kilmer (Leic, Notts)
Greenfield (Liverpool)
Holyland (Anywhere and everywhere, also Holiland Holliland Hollyland)
Pryce/Price (Welshpool, Liverpool)
Rawson (Leicester)
Upton (Desford, Leics)
Partrick (Vera and George, Leicester)
Marshall (Westmorland, Cheshire/Leicester)

Offline thelinkman

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Re: Mary Holyland/Mary Carmichael Smyth
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 18 February 20 13:16 GMT (UK) »
Hi. My 4 x great Aunt was Mary Holyland that married James Carmichael Smyth. I have a handwritten family tree page that gives the following:
Mary was born 23/5/1756, christened 24/5/1756 St. Luke Old Street, died 29/5/1806. Married James Carmichael Smith 9/11/1775.
The tree also shows that Mary is her mother and William Holyland (christened 1692 Whitechapel) is her father, coincidentally he has an elder brother called Thomas.
There's more information on this tree but my late uncle compiled it and it will need verification. My mother has a number of birth/marriage certificates which would need to be reviewed.


Offline Annie65115

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Re: Mary Holyland/Mary Carmichael Smyth
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 18 February 20 20:15 GMT (UK) »
Hello Linkman

I've certainly got the baptisms that you mention on my spreadsheet. BTW did you know that the parents of William b 1692 were sentenced to death for coin clipping and forgery?

If Mary was born 1756, that would make her 19 when she married, rather than 15 or 16 as suggested by other sources, and I'd feel more comfortable with that for sure.

However -- this doesn't explain the Elton connection --I'm sure my records aren't exhaustive, but I don't have a marriage for William and Mary to know of Mary's surname. I do however have the marriage details for Mary Elton and Christopher Holyland (not William), and the baptism of their daughter Mary. I know that Mary Holyland/Elton (ie Mary Carmichael Smyths mother) remarried in 1774 and I can't see a burial for William prior to this either.

Does your paperwork give any details about a William/Mary marriage? I'd be v interested to know more if possible.
Bradbury (Sedgeley, Bilston, Warrington)
Cooper (Sedgeley, Bilston)
Kilner/Kilmer (Leic, Notts)
Greenfield (Liverpool)
Holyland (Anywhere and everywhere, also Holiland Holliland Hollyland)
Pryce/Price (Welshpool, Liverpool)
Rawson (Leicester)
Upton (Desford, Leics)
Partrick (Vera and George, Leicester)
Marshall (Westmorland, Cheshire/Leicester)

Offline thelinkman

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Re: Mary Holyland/Mary Carmichael Smyth
« Reply #4 on: Friday 21 February 20 17:35 GMT (UK) »
Hi. I knew a Holyland was hanged for counterfeiting due to Sir Isaac Newton and the Royal Mint but didn't know who and where it fitted in to my tree. Also that it was both of them and certainly didn't know that it was my Great (x7) grandparents - my name is Holyland and live in London. May I ask how you're interested and your connection? I'll need to get round my mothers house and go through some documents but would be very interested in any more facts you have. On this hand drawn tree I have, the father of Mary (Carmichael Smyth) is down as William christened 28/7/1692 St. Mary Whitechapel, which would make him 64 when she was born. Seems a bit old but may have happened, or could it be that a generation (Christopher?) was missed out by my late uncle. He did all his research many years ago by hand (pre-internet) by walking to the London churches to get information but some were bombed in WW2. Incidentally I'v always thought that the Peerage had it wrong when they say Bromley. The whole family has always been based near the East End and the Thomas that was hanged was from Stepney so I've always believed Bromley-by-Bow.

Offline Annie65115

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Re: Mary Holyland/Mary Carmichael Smyth
« Reply #5 on: Friday 21 February 20 21:59 GMT (UK) »
Hello again; I have Holylands in my direct ancestry line, and I've registered the name with the Guild of one name Studies, so I'm trying to collect all the Holyland info that I can from everywhere in the world! To this end I have spreadsheets aplenty (!) and have tried to correlate a lot of the info -- hence my querying Mary's parentage, as the websites don't match the info that I have.

I'd be v interested to know more about your Holyland line.

We can't exchange private messages until you've got at least 3 posts on here so if you respond tothis. I can then send you my email address for more info etc.
Bradbury (Sedgeley, Bilston, Warrington)
Cooper (Sedgeley, Bilston)
Kilner/Kilmer (Leic, Notts)
Greenfield (Liverpool)
Holyland (Anywhere and everywhere, also Holiland Holliland Hollyland)
Pryce/Price (Welshpool, Liverpool)
Rawson (Leicester)
Upton (Desford, Leics)
Partrick (Vera and George, Leicester)
Marshall (Westmorland, Cheshire/Leicester)

Offline thelinkman

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Re: Mary Holyland/Mary Carmichael Smyth
« Reply #6 on: Monday 24 February 20 10:32 GMT (UK) »
I'm very interested indeed in any information on the Holylands and look forward to exchanging data - seems you'll have a fair bit more than me!

Regards
Dave

Offline TScarborough

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Re: Mary Holyland/Mary Carmichael Smyth
« Reply #7 on: Friday 04 December 20 02:44 GMT (UK) »
In episode 2 of season 3 of The Repair Shop, a painting of Mary Carmichael Smyth is repaired. The painting is brought in by her great great great grandson. It is a commissioned copy of the painting in Edinburg.

Offline Annie65115

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Re: Mary Holyland/Mary Carmichael Smyth
« Reply #8 on: Friday 04 December 20 13:19 GMT (UK) »
Now that would be interesting but it seems it's no longer available to view.
Bradbury (Sedgeley, Bilston, Warrington)
Cooper (Sedgeley, Bilston)
Kilner/Kilmer (Leic, Notts)
Greenfield (Liverpool)
Holyland (Anywhere and everywhere, also Holiland Holliland Hollyland)
Pryce/Price (Welshpool, Liverpool)
Rawson (Leicester)
Upton (Desford, Leics)
Partrick (Vera and George, Leicester)
Marshall (Westmorland, Cheshire/Leicester)