Author Topic: Hards in Hatfield Area  (Read 674 times)

Offline MattD30

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Re: Hards in Hatfield Area
« Reply #9 on: Sunday 15 March 20 20:46 GMT (UK) »
????
marriage,11.11.1684 thomas hards=mary laurance, at godstone st nickolas, surrey.
bapts 10.5.1689 thomas hards, at edburton sussex, son william/margaret.
Margaret.

Hi Margaret

Thanks for those. I'm not sure who these two are though, or if they could be the Thomas and Mary I'm looking for. The christenings of Thomas and Mary's children took place between 1663/64 and 1669 in Withyham and Thomas himself was christened in Hartfield in February 1635/36.

Were those dates correct or should they have been earlier?

Alternatively could this be a different Hards family?

Matt

Offline MattD30

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Re: Hards in Hatfield Area
« Reply #10 on: Sunday 15 March 20 21:01 GMT (UK) »
Link to Lewes Marriage Licence Register, Hards + Woodgate, 24 Sep 1624, here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D1GQ-TBJ?cat=604174

And the main bits transcribed here :)
https://archive.org/details/calendarofsussex01chicuoft/page/144/mode/2up

BT for Withyham does indeed say the marriage was on the 23 Sep (Edmund is Edward on this)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DTS3-NC9?i=121&cat=586259

His first child was christened in 1663/64 at Withyham so the marriage may have taken there.

Matt, bear in mind that the Withyham parish registers only seem to survive back to 1663 (some say 1661, a few baptisms for that year are recorded)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-XCQ3-B36?i=6&cat=244587

There is the usual gap in the BT's as well, so if the marriage of Thomas and Mary was at Withyham it may be lost. I guess there might also be a possibility of one or two earlier baptisms there?
John

Hi John

Thanks for those bits of info and also the links which were a great help. I wasn't sure how early the registers for Withyham survived but I had guessed they might not be much earlier than the 1660s. The interesting thing is that the licence says Elizabeth was "of Speldhurst, co Kent" and on the BT entry it says she was "of Withiam". I wonder why that is?

Matt

Offline jonw65

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Re: Hards in Hatfield Area
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 15 March 20 22:00 GMT (UK) »
Hi Matt
That is a good point! I don't really know why Elizabeth's residence should differ on those two records. Unless perhaps she was usually of Withyham, but resident in Speldhurst at the time of the marriage, but Withyham "ignored" this fact when recording it.

There are a few wills of Woodgates of Withyham  proved in the PCC.
A quick skim, William Woodgate, yeoman, proved 1623, has a daughter Elizabeth.
Another one, William Woodgate, yeoman, proved 1649. Does he have a brother in law Edmund Hards?
John


Offline MattD30

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Re: Hards in Hatfield Area
« Reply #12 on: Sunday 15 March 20 22:32 GMT (UK) »
Hi Matt
That is a good point! I don't really know why Elizabeth's residence should differ on those two records. Unless perhaps she was usually of Withyham, but resident in Speldhurst at the time of the marriage, but Withyham "ignored" this fact when recording it.

There are a few wills of Woodgates of Withyham  proved in the PCC.
A quick skim, William Woodgate, yeoman, proved 1623, has a daughter Elizabeth.
Another one, William Woodgate, yeoman, proved 1649. Does he have a brother in law Edmund Hards?
John

Hi John

Elizabeth appears to have been christened in Penshurst in Kent, which is 2 miles from Speldhurst [literally right next door] in 1598. I'm guessing that maybe she was living in Withyham for a while before the marriage but when the licence was applied for she stated where she had lived before or where she had moved from.

I think checking out any wills in the PCC or Kent courts is definitely the next step.

Matt


Offline MattD30

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Re: Hards in Hatfield Area
« Reply #13 on: Monday 16 March 20 13:20 GMT (UK) »
Hi Matt
That is a good point! I don't really know why Elizabeth's residence should differ on those two records. Unless perhaps she was usually of Withyham, but resident in Speldhurst at the time of the marriage, but Withyham "ignored" this fact when recording it.

There are a few wills of Woodgates of Withyham  proved in the PCC.
A quick skim, William Woodgate, yeoman, proved 1623, has a daughter Elizabeth.
Another one, William Woodgate, yeoman, proved 1649. Does he have a brother in law Edmund Hards?
John

I found three or four wills for Woodgates in Penshurst today, all proved in the PCC. There is a Thomas Woodgate who died in 1660 who may be Elizabeth's brother [I can't see her name in his Will but she did have a brother named Thomas], and another for an Anne Woodgate [widow] in 1680. Before that there is a Fortune Woodgate leaving a Will in 1645 and obviously he might be from an earlier generation, possibly Thomas' father. The odd thing is that a search of the PCC for Woodgate wills in Penshurst gives two results for Fortune Woodgate. There is one listed for a "Fortuneius Woodgate" and a one for "Fortune Woodgate". As the probate dates are the same I assume they are the same man, but the first will seems to be longer than the second.

Matt

Offline jonw65

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Re: Hards in Hatfield Area
« Reply #14 on: Monday 16 March 20 17:10 GMT (UK) »
Hi Matt
Could Thomas Woodgate have moved from Penshurst to Withyham? :-\
Between 1596 and 1606 in Penshurst there are baptisms to Thomas Woodgate of
Margaret, Elizabeth, Thomas, Anna, Philip (Phillis on FamilySearch)

Then in Withyham (from BT's)
Edward in 1607/8
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DTS3-FBB?i=95&cat=586259

and Robert in 1610.

I am not entirely convinced by this, the big problem is that Withyham BT's start in 1606, and with there being no parish register, we don't know what was going on there before then.

Also, we may need a William in the family.
It seems to me that William Woodgate of Withyham, in his will of 1649 names brother in law Edmond Hards. And seven children of Edmond (for most of whom, not all, I can see possible baptisms in Hartfield), Margarett, John, William, Thomas, Robert, James, and Elizabeth.

William's loving wife is Anne. Father in law William ?? of Penshurst?

Other highlights!
Brother Thomas Woodgate.
Brother John Woodgate, who has three daughters, a son John.

One of William's sisters had married a Benjamin - could that be Jessop (as per baptisms in Withyham?) - not good at reading these names!

Another sister had married an Edward F..., two children, Edward and Elizabeth. Could that name be Fry(e), there might be baptisms in Penshurst.
Not finding the marriages!

John

Offline MattD30

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Re: Hards in Hatfield Area
« Reply #15 on: Monday 16 March 20 18:12 GMT (UK) »
Hi Matt
Could Thomas Woodgate have moved from Penshurst to Withyham? :-\
Between 1596 and 1606 in Penshurst there are baptisms to Thomas Woodgate of
Margaret, Elizabeth, Thomas, Anna, Philip (Phillis on FamilySearch)

Then in Withyham (from BT's)
Edward in 1607/8
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DTS3-FBB?i=95&cat=586259

and Robert in 1610.

I am not entirely convinced by this, the big problem is that Withyham BT's start in 1606, and with there being no parish register, we don't know what was going on there before then.

Also, we may need a William in the family.
It seems to me that William Woodgate of Withyham, in his will of 1649 names brother in law Edmond Hards. And seven children of Edmond (for most of whom, not all, I can see possible baptisms in Hartfield), Margarett, John, William, Thomas, Robert, James, and Elizabeth.

William's loving wife is Anne. Father in law William ?? of Penshurst?

Other highlights!
Brother Thomas Woodgate.
Brother John Woodgate, who has three daughters, a son John.

One of William's sisters had married a Benjamin - could that be Jessop (as per baptisms in Withyham?) - not good at reading these names!

Another sister had married an Edward F..., two children, Edward and Elizabeth. Could that name be Fry(e), there might be baptisms in Penshurst.
Not finding the marriages!

John

Hi John

Thanks for the message and the extra info. I guess it is possible that Thomas Woodgate moved to Withyham, after all it might explain how come Elizabeth married a man from Hartfield.

I don't have my notes on the family with me at the moment [I've just finished work and I'm sat in a coffee shop waiting for a train lol!] but I will go through my notes on the Hards and also the Woodgate tree when I am back home and I'll be back in touch. Some of the names you listed look familiar. I am certain that there is a Philip Hards somewhere in the family [possibly one of Edmond's grandchildren] but I will need to check.

Where is William Woodgate's will? Was that proved in the PCC? If you have a copy is it possible to send it to me, or if not I can get it tomorrow. Oddly when I searched for Woodgate wills on the National Archives website they all come up as "Woodgate" yet on Ancestry "Anne Woodgate" has been listed was as something completely different, Wodlate I think [you'd need to check for her]. I only found her will as I knew the date of probate lol!!

Anyhow I will be in touch again later. Thanks again for the help.
Matt

Offline jonw65

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Re: Hards in Hatfield Area
« Reply #16 on: Monday 16 March 20 18:22 GMT (UK) »
Hi Matt
Yes, it is a PCC will on ancestry. But let me know if you can't get hold of it.
Is also on TNA, can see bits of it with their image viewer (watermarked)
Will of William Woodgate, Yeoman of Withyham, Sussex
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D862617

John

Offline MattD30

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Re: Hards in Hatfield Area
« Reply #17 on: Monday 16 March 20 22:22 GMT (UK) »
Hi Matt
Yes, it is a PCC will on ancestry. But let me know if you can't get hold of it.
Is also on TNA, can see bits of it with their image viewer (watermarked)
Will of William Woodgate, Yeoman of Withyham, Sussex
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D862617

John

Hi John

Thanks for that, I'll be able to get a copy of the will tomorrow.

Looking at the info you sent and the details I have it seems that there is definitely a link, however I have different children listed for Edmond and only six. The children I have are as follows:

Philip - born May 1627 Hartfield, Sussex
John - born May 1628 Hartfield, Sussex
Elizabeth - born April 1630 Hartfield, Sussex
William - born November 1634 Hartfield, Sussex
Thomas - born February 1636 Hartfield, Sussex [my ancestor]
Richard - born May 1639 Hartfield, Sussex

As you can seen we both have these names in our lists of children for Edmund/Edmond

John, William, Thomas, and Elizabeth. Yet you have a Margaret, a Robert, and a James who I don't have and I have names you don't have. What are the dates of those three children [Margaret, Robert and James]?

Another interesting fact is that Edmund Hards son, Thomas, was christening his children in Withyham in the 1660s so they definitely appeared to have moved between the parishes.

The christening of Elizabeth Woodgate in Penshurst in 1598 appears [so far] to be the only suitable candidate for the Elizabeth who married Edmund Hards given that it is only 2 miles from the parish of Speldhurst which were Elizabeth was apparently living at the time of her marriage to Edmund.

I will see what else I can find out tomorrow.

Matt