Author Topic: Missing from 1841 census?  (Read 2692 times)

Offline roycymru

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Re: Missing from 1841 census?
« Reply #18 on: Saturday 14 March 20 21:10 GMT (UK) »
Wow! Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to do this, much appreciated. Are we any really clearer whether we think Van is Fan or Lan?

Not sure if it clarifies or confused things but on the tithe maps from 1848 there is a farm called Van occupied by a David Hughes comprised of field numbers 1688-1703 occupied by David Hughes, near Llwynyffynon and the quarries/kilns nearby. I agree Van Issa and Ucha are quarries/kilns and it is not unreasonable to assume they would be named after a farm called a Van nearby. If you click on the associated links to maps and apportionments for the fields you can see what I mean. There is also a field called Ffan in the same area!

https://places.library.wales/search/51.779/-4.248/16?alt=&page=1&refine=&query=Van&order=desc&sort=score&rows=100&parish_facet%5B%5D=Llangyndeyrn&leaflet-base-layers_92=on


Offline roycymru

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Re: Missing from 1841 census?
« Reply #19 on: Saturday 14 March 20 21:40 GMT (UK) »
Have also that there is a second page to Van occupied by David Hughes

https://places.library.wales/viewer/4541277#?cv=126&h=942&c=&m=&s=&manifest=https%3A%2F%2Fdamsssl.llgc.org.uk%2Fiiif%2F2.0%2F4541277%2Fmanifest.json&xywh=596%2C38%2C4605%2C2332

Where there is entry number 1974 a Limestone Quarry

Offline roycymru

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Offline Talacharn

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Re: Missing from 1841 census?
« Reply #21 on: Saturday 14 March 20 21:49 GMT (UK) »
From either of the two Plas-bâch options given, I do not see any logical link to the Gwempa area. The residence I feel will be Plas-bâch. Online maps do not go back far enough, as a large house could have been demolished, especially as the industry expanded. I now think Lan and Fan were large farmhouses with land. Fan translates to summit, region, place or spot, which I then think, was corrupted for the English market to Van. The word Van, could have been a house, it is certainly a farm with land, but looks linked more to industry.

I have looked at the Tithe map and there are fields called Van, linked to Van Farm south of the road and west of Lan, but also opposite spreading into the mining areas. In that area, I do not see anything substantial enough for the home. The large dwellings are named, nothing to suggest a small mansion. At present, I can only link Van with Fan.
 
Plas-bâch a little north of Llangyndeyrn, is near to the church. Why would he want to be buried there if there not a close link? The census entry about living next to a shop bothered me, as I struggled to make that connection in Lan or Fan. If the recorder went from Plas-bâch into Llangyndeyrn village, the next property could have been a shop. Though given the industry and number of workers around Lan, there would need to be a local shop and services like the Smithy. As there are at least two houses called Plas-bâch, and another near Pontyates with colliery, cottages and house, there would need to be an additional identifier like Van.

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3582650/3582654/26/
The Carmarthen Weekly Reporter . 26th November 1897
Carmarthenshire County Council. MEETING OF THE MAIN ROADS SUB-COMMITTEE. 7s 3d Five Roads to the Van, William Treharne, 5s; the Van to near Foxhole. From that, the Van was between Five Roads and Foxhole. I remember seeing Foxhole, but for now I cannot find it. That may suggest there were other areas called Van, as Van Lime increased its size.


Offline roycymru

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Re: Missing from 1841 census?
« Reply #22 on: Sunday 15 March 20 11:36 GMT (UK) »
Thanks you for everyone's time and effort on this, especially Talacharn, I can't thank you enough.

Although there is still conflicting information. My current thoughts on this are that the Plasbach's on the maps are unfortunately red herrings. The Plasbach that William Treharne lived at and then his daughter Ann, who married a David Owens I don't think is detailed on maps. In 1851 it is a small property (7 acres), which had expanded to 20 acres by 1861. Before 1851 it may have been even smaller, a truly small mansion!

The above is based on looking again at Plasbach in the 1851 and 1861 census and in particular the 1861 census where I have tried to follow the route the enumerator may have taken. Plasbach definitively is in the same area as Van, Llwynyfynnon, Dany yr Allt, Van,  Blaen-Meilion etc. and I think Plasbach may have originally just been part of the Quarry "complex".

Also of significance are that South East/South of Van/Fan are Minke (Meinciau) and Ffos Wilkin where William's sons John and Griffith Treharne lived.

Trying to follow the path of the enumerator in 1861 on these maps. The sequence doesn’t seen entirely logical but the general path as seen on the below maps is:

https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179738

17 Halfway (Halfway House) – Public House then left to
18 Pantgwenny (Pant-gwinau) (Farm 0f 79 acres), then south to
19 Dan yr Allt (Farm of 40 Acres), the NE to
20 Bancymillon (Blaen-million) (Farm of 35 Acres), then SE to
21 Pantymillon (Pant-y-meillion) (Farm of 40 acres), then SE
22-29 via various properties not on map housing Ag. Labourers, Shoemakers etc.
30 Van (Fan) where Richard Edmund a Mason lived, then S to
31 Llwynyffynnon (farm of 29 acres)

Then via various properties not on the map, housing Lime Burners, Shoemakers, Ag. Labourers and a Blaksmith’s widow, presumably all resident within the Quarry “complex”, including

38 Plasebach where Ann Owen (nee Treharne, William’s daughter) and her husband and family were living (Farmer of 20 Acres), Then SE to

https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179756

43 Blanevan (Blaen-y-fan) (Farm of 70 Acres), then SE to
46-48 Minke (Meinciau)

In 1851 the enumerator seems to have travelled in the opposite direction

Offline roycymru

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Re: Missing from 1841 census?
« Reply #23 on: Thursday 26 March 20 22:27 GMT (UK) »
Hi

Talacharn, I wonder if I can call on your expertise again. I am looking for a Glynhir in “Llangendeirne”. I have found references to one in Llandybie but I think this is too far away. If you don’t mind I was wondering if you can use your map expertise to see if you can find one in the Llangendeirne area.

The reason I ask is that I think William of Plasbach/Van could also have links to Glynhir. This is based that on the fact that in Llangendeirne Parish records, there is a Mary Treharne baptised 03Apr1815 daughter of a William and Jane Treharne, William being a Farmer of Glynhir.

I can only find one marriage of a William Treharne to a Jane, Jane Walter in Carmarthenshire parish records, on 05Dec1797. Therefore, unless anyone has an alternative suggestion (?) the current conclusion is that William Treharne of Plasbach/Van, Lime burner, wife Jane was previously William Treharne a Farmer of Glynhir. Seems strange, but can’t come up with an alternative explanation at present.


Offline Talacharn

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Re: Missing from 1841 census?
« Reply #24 on: Friday 27 March 20 08:49 GMT (UK) »
Glyn-hir means long valley or glen. Is that a house or area?
I followed the Gwendraeth valley from the lime kilns down towards Kidwelly as that is the main/longest valley in the area. It is unlikely to me in the hilly areas. Pontyberem and Pontyates are also in valleys, so it could also be around either.

A little south of Fan towards Kidwelly, on the next sheet, there is Coed y Glyn a large wooded area with Glyn Abbey, even a field called Cae Glyn, a mill Felin-y-Glyn and a house called Glyn-fach. I have checked different maps and neighbouring sheets, but as of yet no Glynhir.

https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179936

I will look again, but for now, feel it is one of the unnamed properties in or near these woods.

Offline Talacharn

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Re: Missing from 1841 census?
« Reply #25 on: Friday 27 March 20 09:42 GMT (UK) »
This could be a property/land that was swallowed up for industry before the maps were published, which would explain the change.

Is it Glyn-hir or Clyn-hir? I have found a farm/complex called Clyn-hir.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102340260
Bottom left corner and follow the bottom edge along to Pont-Henry. From the word Pont, go up across a small woodland and a couple of fields.

Offline roycymru

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Re: Missing from 1841 census?
« Reply #26 on: Friday 27 March 20 20:58 GMT (UK) »
Thank you for this. There are several references I have come across all spelt Glynhir. Does Clynhir have a meaning? If not, then it could be a mid transcription of Clynhir. William’s son John Treharne lived at Minke (Meinciau) Mawr, which is not far from Clynhir