Missing from 1841 census?

[Ladyhawk]

Don’t know if it helps any but it looks like Plasbach was also known as “Van”.

Almost by chance I came across a picture of William’s (substantial) grave at Llangendeirne. The transcription given is:

“In/Memory of Jane, Wife of/Wm. Treharne of this parish, died/Nov.r 15 1822 aged 47 Years/Here Also Lieth the Body of the/Aforesaid Wm. Treharne of Van, who/died Nov.r 21 1842 Aged 71 Years/Also John son of David & Ann/Owens Van who died March 2nd/1853 Aged 8 Years.”

John must be a grandson of William, son of Ann Owens (nee Treharne) and David.

John OWEN   mmn   TREHARNE 
1845  J Quarter in CARMARTHEN UNION  Volume 26  Page 547

On the 1851 census Piece:   2472 Folio:   201 Page Number:   10

next door to David Owen address Placebach is Mary Evan Shopkeeper address looks to read Van Shop
- have added snippet

[roycymru]

Great spot. Looking in the 1861 Census there is a Richard Edmund a mason and family at "Van" (on the page before Placebach). So definitely a placed called Van although Van is not obviously a Welsh name. Can anyone find it in 1841? Have also added a picture of William's burial record at Vann (although as mentioned previously, of his death certificate his residence is given as Plasbach)

[roycymru]

On the 1879 to 1887 map, published: 1887, to the east of Llangyndeyrn there seems to be a large house called Lan. It is near a number of limekilns and quarries.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179747
In Welsh there is no letter V and the word pronounced ‘van’ is written fan. Could this be a mistake in transcription? Also, the word issa, could it be isaf meaning lower? On google translate, plas bach means a small mansion.

For some reason I can’t see LAN on the map can you please direct me to it.

If you search Welsh newspapers on line there are several,references to the the Van Lime Kilns and the quality of “Van Lime”

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4335483/4335486/46/Van%20AND%20Llangendeirne

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3364222/3364224/18/Van%20AND%20Llangendeirne

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4347394/4347397/35/Van%20AND%20Llangendeirne

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4352630/4352636/37/Van%20AND%20Lime

[Talacharn]

On the 1879 to 1887 map, published: 1889. Lan is east of Llangyndeyrn, north, northeast of Crwbin by the arc of limekilns and quarries. On the early maps it looks like one large house, then on later maps there are several buildings drawn. It still exists on Google Maps.

This is a different map section: https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179741
There is a small place called Fan, top right, beneath the same limekilns and quarries. It would be pronounced Van and could be a transcribing error. Although small, because of the industry, it could have required a shop. It is also close to Llangyndeyrn but south.

It strikes me as being the localised description, rather than Plasbach being a place on the map. A small mansion (or group of) people would recognise. If the limekilns were known as Van, it could be either Lan or Fan as both are close to the kilns. Just to add further confusion.

[Talacharn]

My hunch would be, the kilns/quarries had English owners, or English speakers and probably selling to England, so Fan pronounced Van would be confusing, therefore easier to call them Van Lime Kilns and your product Van Lime. Exporting your lime to south west England would be easy from Bury Port (maybe not old enough for 1840s) or Kidwelly. Considering the size of this industry, it is too large for local use only and transporting by boat was easier than road.

[roycymru]

Thank you for your help and input, very much appreciated. I wouldn’t be surprised if William was known locally under the colloquial name “Will Van”, being William of the small mansion located in the lower region on Van lime links. Lower in this context could equate to “south of” which would fit the location of Fan/Van in relation to the lime kilns in the map.

Not at my computer at the moment, but I will add a picture of his gravestone. Looking a it afresh I wouldn’t be surprised if it was actually made from limestone, I would welcome thoughts on this when I post the picture.

I am fairly confident that Willian’s father was a John Treharne of Glynsyllen a wealthy gentleman of Llanelly. He left a Will 1825, where, although of Llanelly, he specifically states he wants to be buried at Llangendeirne, as near as possible to his other relatives and there is a corresponding burial record for him in the Llangendeirne parish records. This is why, as per a separate post, I am keen for any pictures of Treharne gravestones at Llangendeirne. The only one I have come across so far is that of William and that was purely by chance.

[roycymru]

Picture of William's grave. Made of limestone?

From the size of the grave, also looks to be someone of reasonable means

[roycymru]

Lan/Fan! Have been trying to narrow down which might be Van!

Lan to the south east of Llangendeirne, near Cwrbin, seems the more logical place. However, I think is more likely to be Fan, near Gwempa to the South West of Llangendeirne https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179741 (to right hand corner)

In the 1851 and 1861 Census the enumerator states the area Van and Plasbach lie in is in the hamlet of Gwempa, Llangendeirne. It is difficult to know retrospectively the exact area this covered but in the 1861 census Gwempa, Llwyn y fynnon, Pant y Meillion and Blaen y Meillion are also listed as close by to Fan. There are also several Lime burners in the area and several Lime Kilns on the map. And if you expand this map https://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/301817/details/gwempa-pontantwn Van farm is close by, to the south east of Gwempa.

As previously mentioned Fan would be pronounced as Van, so to me this all seems to fit.

Feel free to disagree!

[Talacharn]

Most of this is disjointed as I kept looking while Rootschat was not available. I updated my browser and Rootschat was the only site I could not access, now resolved.

This morning, I went for a drive, down the tiny roads either side of Crwbin and found nothing. Then I called at the library and looked at an OS Map. Lan is still present and named as a hamlet of houses. There is a property called Van Farm very close to the hamlet of Fan I found on the 1889 map, off the B4309, northwest of Meinciau. It is on the other side of the road to the present quarry. Looking at Street View, it is a large farm complex, though probably not dating back to 1840. From the aerial view, there are more houses I could not see from the road. When I click on those houses, it says they are in Llangyndeyrn, not Meinciau. On the OS map, Llangyndeyrn was a large district that took in most of the limekilns and quarries.

I have found two places called Plas-bâch. https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179738
Carmarthenshire XLVI.SE (includes: Kidwelly; Llandyfaelog; Llangyndeyrn.)
Revised: 1905 . Published: 1907. Bottom left corner. It is the opposite corner to Fan and may not be in Llangyndeyrn. But there is another just outside Llangyndeyrn. https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179744 - Carmarthenshire XLVII.NW (includes: Llangyndeyrn.) Revised: 1905 . Published: 1907. Top left corner. Llangyndeyrn is on the left edge just above halfway. Looking on Google Maps, it could still be standing and now a farm.

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4347394/4347397/35/
The Welshman . 23rd May 1851
THE COST OF LIME. To the Editor of the Welshman. Sir, Will you allow me to ask through your columns what is the reason that lime at the Van Issa and Mynydd-y-garreg Quarries, situate in the parishes of Llangendeirne and Kidwelly, has risen in price nearly double to what it was in years of Protection?

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3582375/3582377/22/
The Carmarthen Weekly Reporter (Supplement) . 26th March 1897
fatal accident took place at Van-issa Quarry, Llangendeime, about 10 a.m. David Bowen (38), a lime burner and quarryman, living at Blaenpant, was working at a portion of the quarry rented from Mr Fitzwilliams, Adpar House, Newcastle-Emlyn.

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4352090/4352094/11/
The Welshman . 24th April 1863
It talks of constructing a railway line from Kidwelly and is an interesting read, about the wealthy owners wanting more. ‘One is a revival of these mineral branches, under a new company, the other is to make a line from Kidwelly to Van-issa and Van-ucha, and to Gorsgoch, at the top of the Llanelly Railway, for the purpose, it is stated, of opening all the lime and coal in the valley.
From that, it is clear Van is a quarry with issa and ucha being lower and upper. If you follow parts of the line on the 1907 map it heads up the valley towards the mining area near Fan, then probably sweeps around to the area of Lan. The issue is not knowing where Gorsgoch is, as I could not find it on Genuki, but from newspapers in Jan/Feb 1880, it seems ‘THE GORSGOCH COLLIERY and FIREBRICK 1 WORKS, situate at MYNYDD MAWR, near LLANELLY’ which then links lime to coal and Llanelly, then Swansea.

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4355476/4355480/19/
The Welshman . 16th July 1875
LOT 3. All those two desirable Farms, called "LAN & WERN," With suitable Farm-house and Out-buildings, and 122a. 3r. 3p., or thereabouts, of capital Arable, Pasture, and Meadow Land, in the occupation of Mr John Thomas, as yearly tenant; together with the Lime Rocks and Kilns, called Van-ucha, and the Lime-stone Quarry… The Property is well supplied with water, it is intersected by capital roads, in close proximity to the celebrated Van Lime-kilns, and within easy distances of several well-known Collieries. It would seem, Lan was a farm not a hamlet.