Author Topic: Family feud over land?  (Read 1745 times)

Offline majm

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Re: Family feud over land?
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 04 April 20 15:29 BST (UK) »
So,  consider the order in which the names appear....
* not by alphabetical surname
* not by alphabetical given name

Perhaps by eldest?

JM
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Offline KitHannay

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Re: Family feud over land?
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 04 April 20 15:34 BST (UK) »
Yup that's them, Hallmark! And the Rev. John Donaldson is their sister's husband.

The order of their names seems to be by eldest to youngest by what I've found, bar Charles Seaver. He appears last in the list but he is the eldest out of all of them.
Hanna, Donoghue, Johnson, Williams, Glackin, Bradley, Fenlon, Carroll, McGinley, Haughey, Holmes, Cross

Offline jc26red

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Re: Family feud over land?
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 04 April 20 15:50 BST (UK) »
With encumbered estates, I always also check the registry of deeds which are viewable in the Family Search Catalogue. There are some previous threads, a few years ago now, which explain how to search.
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Offline jc26red

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Re: Family feud over land?
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 04 April 20 15:53 BST (UK) »
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Offline hallmark

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Re: Family feud over land?
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 04 April 20 15:54 BST (UK) »
With encumbered estates, I always also check the registry of deeds which are viewable in the Family Search Catalogue. There are some previous threads, a few years ago now, which explain how to search.


Depends on who leased the Land and to Whom.... at a guess it looks like Barton but no mention of them being in Encumbered Court then.

http://www.landedestates.ie:8080/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=609

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Offline hallmark

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Re: Family feud over land?
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 04 April 20 15:56 BST (UK) »
See here for instructions https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=765484.9


Ahhh..yes!  Was wondering which thread had the leasing of the Church pew!

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Offline majm

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Re: Family feud over land?
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 04 April 20 16:03 BST (UK) »
Likely John Donaldson is listed simply because as husband to one if those sisters, if his wife dies while her children are still dependents, then some one needs to be their legal voice in any proceedings. 

If so,  then the list is chronological and gender based,  with TWO male relatives at the end of the list, and the ex parte chap as the second of those.

To me that order supports hallmarks comment about the solicitor being a good one.  By putting the female names first he was making sure no males had any  priority to any legal precedent  ahead of the women.

JM
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Offline hallmark

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Re: Family feud over land?
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 04 April 20 16:17 BST (UK) »


Have you tried here these are a comprehensive assessment of the rental value of Irish lands and property from the mid-1820s to the mid-1850s. 

Just put Townland in.... it could be Donegal or Fermanagh

Read http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/vob/home.jsp  first! then click Search

or try Surname   plus Donegal and/or Fermanagh




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Online Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Family feud over land?
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 04 April 20 22:40 BST (UK) »
Hi all,

I'm researching a family from Donegal/Fermanagh who ended up in the Encumbered Estates Court in 1854 and I need help understanding what's going on!

As you'll see in the photo attached, there were a lot of 'owners' of this land - I've done the research and these people are all cousins (the Givens, Achesons and Seavers). I think the whole encumbered estates thing has to do with estates going bankrupt after the famine, but what I'm unsure of is if this family is fighting over land or what? Why is Charles Seaver singled out as a petitioner? He was the eldest of the cousins and all other cousins were girls (bar one other boy who I think was the youngest of all the cousins). Do you think he was trying to claim the land or something?

I found reference to a 'Seaver v Given' case about this time in the 'Rolls court' but I cannot find any further information than that so I don't know what that means.

Can anyone help or advise?

My understanding of the background to the Encumbered Estates legislation was that the value of most estates was based on the income from the rents from farmers and any other tenants leasing land.  Many landlords raised cash by taking mortgages against their estates. Many estates were grossly overvalued. Then along came the famine, and most tenants couldn’t pay their rents, or at least not in full. As a consequence, many landlords couldn’t repay their mortgages and were potentially bankrupt. So many of them were in this position that many banks would also be technically bankrupt if all their mortgagees defaulted. (This is very similar to the banking crisis in more recent years where reckless loans were made against sub-prime properties, and when people failed to keep up the repayments, the “security” proved to have little or no value).  A couple of defaulting mortgagees is nothing, the banking industry should be able to cope with that, but in the 1850s so many were defaulting that the whole banking system in Ireland was liable to collapse. That obviously could have led to the economic collapse of the whole country. My understanding is that the purpose of the Encumbered Estates Commissioners (later called the Encumbered Estates Courts) was to do a damage limitation exercise to solve this problem.

The Encumbered Estates Commissioners task was to sell property at the best possible price, repaying such of the mortgage as could be retrieved, after which the balance would be written off. (In the current financial crisis in the UK Boris Johnson’s government has just written off £13 billion of NHS debt. Some similarities there).  That way the property could be sold on, without any hanging debt.  A mortgage hangs on the property, not the person who took it out. If you buy a property that is mortgaged, and the mortgage hasn’t been cleared or written off by a court or some other legislation, the mortgage normally carries forward. In other words you acquire it. Most purchasers wouldn’t want that, making the property unsaleable. So some of the mortgage had to be legally written off, without bankrupting the banks. That was the task for the court. 

So the owner of the property could petition to have it sold, as that way they’d get out of the debt.

I don’t know anything about this particular sale but it looks to be as though the owners of the land in the advert were unable to pay their mortgages and were therefore asking the Encumbered Estates Court to take their properties, sell them, and write off any outstanding debts. The purpose of the advert was probably to alert potential buyers that this property was coming up for sale. Sort of “Homes under the hammer,” so the courts might have bidders for it.
Elwyn