Author Topic: A coat of arm with year 1570  (Read 15365 times)

Offline KGarrad

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 26,062
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: A coat of arm with year 1570
« Reply #9 on: Monday 06 April 20 12:18 BST (UK) »
I agree with Liz - definitely Coats-of-Arms ;D

From The College of Arms (https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/resources/faqs)

Q. What is a crest?

A. It is a popular misconception that the word 'crest' describes a whole coat of arms or any heraldic device. It does not. A crest is a specific part of a full achievement of arms: the three-dimensional object placed on top of the helm.

Q. Do coats of arms belong to surnames?

A. No. There is no such thing as a 'coat of arms for a surname'. Many people of the same surname will often be entitled to completely different coats of arms, and many of that surname will be entitled to no coat of arms. Coats of arms belong to individuals. For any person to have a right to a coat of arms they must either have had it granted to them or be descended in the legitimate male line from a person to whom arms were granted or confirmed in the past.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline Liz_in_Sussex

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 909
  • "We wunt be druv."
    • View Profile
Re: A coat of arm with year 1570
« Reply #10 on: Monday 06 April 20 12:57 BST (UK) »
Moderator comment: relevant posts from duplicate thread merged with this one

louis665 - I am sorry my efforts were not 'relevant' enough!

Liz  :)
Research interests:
Sussex (Isted, Trusler, Pullen, Botting), Surrey (Isted), Shropshire (Hayward), Lincolnshire (Brown, Richardson), Wiltshire (Bailey), Schleswig-Holstein (Isted),  Nordrhein-Westfalen (Niessen).

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline louis665

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 29
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: A coat of arm with year 1570
« Reply #11 on: Monday 06 April 20 13:18 BST (UK) »
Thank you, Liz. To combine the left cross moline and Ulster hand would make some new discovery? The right part might as you metioned be related to Diocese. In 1570 Regnans in Excelsis was issued, might some event such as new Diocese in that year?
I think the arms on the left as you look at it are those of someone belonged to the Bek / de Beke / Beake / Becke family - there are many variations on the name.

This family produced several Bishops - I agree it is definitely a Bishop's mitre above. I am struggling to make out the two things on the right of these arms (the left hand side) - they could be annulets? If so Papworth's Ordinary has nothing about them.

On the right (the arms with the green background) I'm not sure what the black splodge is ... so haven't got far looking it up yet!

The little hand in the corner is a "hand of Ulster" and denotes the bearer was a Baronet.

The puzzling thing is a Bishop would usually impale (to put arms side by side in one shield) his arms with those of his Diocese. So, although I have no evidence to support my theory I think it is possible the arms shown are those borne by the people being commemorated but there has been some artistic licence. (Eg by adding the date and by showing the bearer was a Bishop, but leaving out the arms of his Diocese. Maybe even adding things like the two "annulets".)

Liz

PS They are definitely arms - the crest is the bit that sits on top of the shield.

Offline louis665

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 29
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: A coat of arm with year 1570
« Reply #12 on: Friday 17 April 20 10:28 BST (UK) »
Possibly from Sussex, any help?


Offline Little Nell

  • Global Moderator
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • ********
  • Posts: 11,798
    • View Profile
Re: A coat of arm with year 1570
« Reply #13 on: Friday 17 April 20 21:12 BST (UK) »
Is it possible to see the whole tapestry please, to see the layout of the rest of it?

There are some very famous table carpets dating from the 16th and 17th centuries which are decorated with coats of arms against a floral backdrop.  They were often made in Flanders.

Any particular reason that you think Sussex?  I know of one connected to a family of Sussex origin and it is now in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York.

Nell
All census information: Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline KGarrad

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 26,062
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: A coat of arm with year 1570
« Reply #14 on: Friday 17 April 20 22:07 BST (UK) »
I should point out that the Badge of Ulster is a red hand.

The badge of baronetage, namely a sinister hand erect, open, and couped at the wrist gules(being the arms assigned to the ancient Kings of Ulster), was granted in 1612.

Gules = red.

Quoted from "A Glossary of Terms Used in Heraldry", 1894, James Parker.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline Little Nell

  • Global Moderator
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • ********
  • Posts: 11,798
    • View Profile
Re: A coat of arm with year 1570
« Reply #15 on: Friday 17 April 20 22:29 BST (UK) »
I think Liz also pointed that out earlier in the week.  ;)

As far as I can ascertain, this additional badge on a canton was permitted to be displayed on arms from 1835. Is that right?  Does this mean that the tapestry is perhaps 19th century in origin?

Nell

Added: sorry - misread the paragraph in my heraldry book  :-[
All census information: Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Liz_in_Sussex

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 909
  • "We wunt be druv."
    • View Profile
Re: A coat of arm with year 1570
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 18 April 20 07:36 BST (UK) »
I did ... but I completely didn’t notice that this little hand is in fact Sable (black) or perhaps there is some dodgy colouring going on?  ;)
Research interests:
Sussex (Isted, Trusler, Pullen, Botting), Surrey (Isted), Shropshire (Hayward), Lincolnshire (Brown, Richardson), Wiltshire (Bailey), Schleswig-Holstein (Isted),  Nordrhein-Westfalen (Niessen).

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline KGarrad

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 26,062
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: A coat of arm with year 1570
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 18 April 20 08:09 BST (UK) »
I agree, Liz.
Some very dodgy colouring on this tapestry ;D

Apart from the "Red Hand of Ulster" being black, there is also the fact that green isn't a common colour in British Heraldry?
And a year number (or just a number) is something I can't find any mention of, anywhere?

Maybe just artistic licence? ;D
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)