Isaac Pyne of Wellington

[jonw65]

Abraham's marriage in Wellington, 1 January 1794, is on the page before Isaac Pyne + Joan. We can see them side by side.
Abraham signed the register. So if you are going on literacy in the family, that doesn't support the suggestion that the Isaac who married in 1794 was Abraham's brother?

[Anthea Smith]

That Pyne family seemed to be both as you say literate and illiterate.  When I first thought my Isaac's link was to John and Grace, I checked their marriage and both were illiterate. Abraham is literate and the Isaac married to Joan Chorley not ,so quite a mixture.  I am in regular contact with someone who is a GGG Grandchild of Abraham Pyne. Also through the census I found many family connections between the older Isaac and Abraham's family, including what appeared to be the marriage of cousins. Abraham's daughter, Ann, married James Saunders and Isaac and Joan Chorley were at times caring for the Saunders children  in the census ,in a related way, not just as friends.
Recently I contacted someone on Ancestry who had an Isaac in their tree.  He told me that his Isaac Pyne was married to Joan Chorley and had parents John Pyne and Grace Palmer.
I did not know which Isaac was the will executor for Grace Pyne but I now think that the literacy of executers maybe was not relevant in those days.

[jonw65]

Hi
It really is all incredibly confusing.
So James Saunders married Ann Pyne in Wellington in 1829. Witnessed by John Pyne, Mary Pyne.
Found in Bristol later. James being a Carpenter.

Mary Saunders, 2, is with Isaac and Joan Pyne in Wellington in 1841.
Is this her birth reg as Sanders?
SANDERS, MARY       
Mother's Maiden Surname: PYNE 
GRO Reference: 1839  M Quarter in BRISTOL  Volume 11  Page 181

1851
Elizabeth Saunders, 16, born Wellington is with the widowed Joan Pyne.
But it says she is her granddaughter.

Also with Joan in 1841 and 1851 is Isaac Pyne. He is described as her son in 1851, age 32 (Joan is 81 !!) And Isaac is a carpenter.

So is this Isaac the chap who married Sarah Porter in Wilton, Somerset, in 1855?
He may have taken a few years off his age on that, says he is 32. Father Isaac Pyne, Carpenter.
Isaac and Sarah seem to be around in the USA later.
Emigrated 1857, Pine here (with image)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:27RP-9F9

Birth of the infant with them?
PYNE, ELIZABETH       
Mother's Maiden Surname: PORTER 
GRO Reference: 1856  M Quarter in WELLINGTON-SOMERSET AND DEVON  Volume 05C  Page 422

So we have Isaac (the older one) as a sawyer in 1841
Presumed son Isaac a carpenter, and says his father was a carpenter.

[jonw65]

OK, so Ann Pyne, daughter of Abraham + Ann, born 6 January 1806, bap 22 March 1806, Independent Meeting House, Wellington.

In 1851 she is single and with her married sister Martha Hill, 36, in Wellington
Also there is Jane Pyne, 32, another sister.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGPQ-BPW

Martha and Jane also baptized at the Independent Meeting House, Wellington, in 1814, and 1819.

Ann and Martha appear to be with their mother Ann Pyne in Wellington in 1841. Transcribed Pyore on ancestry.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQ16-KCY

I am in regular contact with someone who is a GGG Grandchild of Abraham Pyne.
Abraham's daughter, Ann, married James Saunders

So the Ann Pyne who married James Saunders in 1829 was not the daughter of Abraham. Where did they get that idea?
It appears likely then that she was the daughter of Isaac and Joan, and the 1851 census is correct, and the 16 year old Elizabeth Saunders was Joan's granddaughter.
Haven't found any baptisms of children of Isaac and Joan.

[Anthea Smith]

Yes I can see that you are correct with that judgement.  When they first contacted me , they told me that their connection to the Wellington Pynes was to Ann, daughter of Abraham married to Ann Parris. Ann married James Saunders. In 1861 census, a John Pyne and Elizabeth Pyne had Elizabeth Saunders with them.  She was a niece. In 1841, Elizabeth Saunders and Harriet Saunders were with the same couple.  I have also searched for the children of Isaac and Joan, but found no results.  I was lucky with my Isaac Pyne that records for his children, William, John, Sarah and Henry Hall Palmer were easily found.  My GG Grandfather was the William. I also thought that the younger Isaac was married to Sarah Porter but did not follow them  up after the marriage.  The Saunders ended up in Bristol and so did my GG Grandfather William who married Mary Seaman of Taunton in Bristol.

[Jeremy Pyne]

Dear Anthea et AL

Anthea and I have compared notes before about our respective Pyne brickwalls. Interesting and helpful bunch of replies, but the wall remains it seems. So we have a change with the Isaac b c 1771 as the likely son of John Pyne and Grace Palmer. John and two generations prior to this we based in Langford Budville just outside of Wellington. This chap seems to be the soldier discharged first from the Guards and then from the veteran battalion. He's the one then that marries Joan Chorley and appears to have at least 2 children, another Isaac b c 1821 who married Sarah Porter and Ann that married James Saunders.

That leaves Anthea's younger Isaac unidentified, born around 1779 and who married twice in Wellington in 1805  and 09.

Just to add to the Isaac mix, in my family of Pynes based around Weston in Gordano and Nailsea, we have an Isaac b in Abersychan , Wales in 1839 (son of Joseph and Rachel) but I think he died age just 4 and buried in Nailsea. My group also used the old testament names , Joseph, Abraham, Samuel etc.

As noted with Anthea before we have a bunch of these chaps all same generation, Anthea's Isaac b c 1779, Abraham who married Ann Paris, b c 1769 and my Joseph, b c 1772 , all frustratingly missing from the birth records.

Another ref that may be relevant. A Rachel Pyne , married George Brown in Bristol in 1846, father given as Isaac.

There is yet another Isaac 'Pain' this time married in Bedminster in 1838, father recorded as Abraham Pain who had a son Isaac sometimes recorded I think as Pyne , a cordwainer.

Anthea - have you checked out one poss lead , I've got a record of your William Pyne b 1811 in one census as being described as a nephew of James And Mary Westlake - never pinned down  what the relationship was there.

Signing off  with brain ache. One day a bunch of previously unrecorded baptisms will make everything clear!

[Anthea Smith]

Hello Jeremy
The problem of Isaac is still with us and so is my determination to find out his parents.  With no teaching at the moment I now have time to work on him again. I am currently trying to work on the Westlake connection.  There were Westlakes in Wellington I believe.  My grandmother in Bristol, Selina Pyne, was housekeeper to a Mrs Westlake.  Possibly no connection between the two families but worth thinking about.  I have been on many other sites recently but without any luck.

[Jo Harding]

Just a thought but have you tried The Somerset and Dorset Family History Society to see if they have any information on this family?

https://sdfhs.org/

I searched on Freereg to see what other Pyne (and variants) families were baptising children in Wellington around 1779. You may have done this already but for your information these are the entries:

1776 Betty Pyne, d/o John and Betty Pyne.
1778, Sarah Pyne, d/o John and Elizabeth Pyne.
1778, Hannah Pyne, base born daughter of Sarah Pyne.
06/01/1783, Sarah Pyne, d/o John and Elizabeth Pyne.
06/01/1783 Mary Pyne, d/o John and Elizabeth Pyne.
1785 John Pyne, s/o Edmund and Sarah Pyne. In South St Baptist Chapel.
1787 Nathaniel Pyne, s/o Edmund and Sarah Pyne. In South St Baptist Chapel.
1787 Sarah Pyne, d/o Joseph and Sarah Pyne. In Presbyterian Independent.
1789 Betty Pyne, d/o Edmund and Sarah Pyne. In South St Baptist Chapel.

There is an odd baptism for a Sarah Pyne, baptised in Wellington on 16/09/1833, born 10/05/1776. Daughter of the late Henry and Mary Pyne. Father's occupation: Woolcomber. Mary shown as wife of Thomas Baker.

There are some Pyne baptisms in West Buckland, which is close to Wellington. These are as follows:

Nathaniel Pyne, born 1773, baptised 02/04/1782, s/o John and Mary Pyne.
John Pyne, born 1775, baptised 02/04/1782, s/o John and Mary Pyne.
Robert Pyne, born 1779, baptised 02/04/1782, s/o John and Mary Pyne.
Charles Robert Pyne, born 1776, baptised 02/04/1782, s/o John and Mary Pyne.
William Pyne, born 1778, baptised 02/04/1782, s/o John and Mary Pyne.
Mary Ann Pyne, born 1781, baptised 02/04/1782, d/o John and Mary Pyne.
Henry Pyne, born 02/08/1782, baptised 17/09/1786, s/o John and Mary Pyne.
Thomas Pyne, born 07/02/1785, baptised 17/09/1786, s/o John and Mary Pyne.

There seems to have been a tendency for the Pyne families to have children baptised in job lots some time after they were born. I have seen other examples where Pyne children were baptised years after they were born. Another example in Wellington, St John, Elizabeth Pyne, born 1790, baptised 06/07/1806, d/o James and Mary Pyne. One more odd one: Lucy Payne, born 17/09/1790, baptised 14/09/1819, d/o Peter and the late Priscilla Payne. Father a Gentleman.

It might be worth bearing in mind that Issac Pyne might have been baptised a long time after 1779.

I presume that all these Pyne families in that area would have been related to each other.

Jo

[Jeremy Pyne]

Many thanks Jo  and for the leg work.
 
The entries look mostly familiar but will check them off more closely. You're right that a later baptism could be the answer , I think especially where you're looking at non conformist denominations that also tended to deal with baptisms I think as and when ministers went around on circuits rather than operating from a parish church.  There do seem to be a bunch missing somewhere - have tried to work through the microfiche of non conformist registers at the Somerset Heritage centre, a few times with no joy but think most are transcribed already.

Jeremy