Author Topic: Two possible death records for a Margaret TOMLINSON (1885 or 1905)  (Read 841 times)

Offline M_ONeill

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Two possible death records for a Margaret TOMLINSON (1885 or 1905)
« on: Friday 01 May 20 18:59 BST (UK) »
Hi all,

I'm having a bit of trouble trying to differentiate between two possible death records for a Mary Tomlinson of Ballymulderg townland, county Derry and I wondered if anyone had any suggestions or advice.

If I have the right person, then Mary's maiden name would have been Pickering. She was married to a Thomas Tomlinson of Ballyneill at Woods Chapel (Church of Ireland) in 1865 where she was listed as being 18 years of age.

The first death record is of a Mary Tomlinson, died 18th April 1885, Ballymulderg aged 35, wife of a Thomas Tomlinson, labourer. A Mary Glendinning is the informant. A Mary Glendinning was also the informant for the death of the couple's infant child Thomas in 1879.

Seems fairly cut and dry, right? Except Thomas is still married to a Margaret in the 1901 census, where he is listed as a Roman Catholic egg-dealer (I suspect Thomas was a catholic even at the time of his marriage, based on the rest of his relatives). The second death record thus has Margaret dying on 9th September 1905 at the age of 64. Thomas Tomlinson was the informant. This record matches Thomas' remarriage to a Rose Murray two months later - Thomas and Rose are living together in the same place in the 1911 census.

So what's going on here? My first thought was that I'm perhaps conflating two separate couples who just happen to have the same names, or that Thomas married *another* Margaret in between 1885 and 1905, but I can find no other record of a Thomas Tomlinson marrying a Margaret in around the right time frame, even searching for name variants.

Any and all suggestions greatly appreciated!

Offline Sinann

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Re: Two possible death records for a Margaret TOMLINSON (1885 or 1905)
« Reply #1 on: Friday 01 May 20 19:56 BST (UK) »
Thomas wife Margaret in 1901 is also RC, if your sure the Margaret he married in 1865 was COI than it looks like he remarried at some point but it was not registered.
OR
Are you sure the Thomas who marred in 1865 is your Thomas.
Thomas in 1901 and 1911 seems a bit young to have married in 1865.
1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Ballyronan/Ballymulderg__More_/1532191/
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Ballyronan/Ballymulderg_More/612962/
1905 Death
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1905/05582/4568084.pdf
1885 death
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1885/06291/4803060.pdf

Offline M_ONeill

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Re: Two possible death records for a Margaret TOMLINSON (1885 or 1905)
« Reply #2 on: Friday 01 May 20 20:38 BST (UK) »
Hi Sinann, thanks for the reply!

I'm not 100% it's the same Thomas Tomlinson, though I've yet to find a better candidate in the record. There is some circumstantial/anecdotal evidence from family stories that may strengthen the link between my catholic ancestors and the Woods Chapel, but nothing beyond that.

I've identified at least two 'branches' of Tomlinsons in the area based on marriage records. Children of a John Tomlinson (who I believe is my 3x great grandfather). This group seem to be living in Ballyneill at the time of their marriages and are all seemingly catholics. The other group are living in nearby Belagherty and are the children of a William Tomlinson, seemingly Church of Ireland.

Offline M_ONeill

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Re: Two possible death records for a Margaret TOMLINSON (1885 or 1905)
« Reply #3 on: Friday 01 May 20 22:34 BST (UK) »
Possible children of John Tomlinson:

  • Thomas Tomlinson
  • Sarah Jane Tomlinson (*my 2x great grandmother)
  • John Tomlinson (listed as 'William John Tomlinson' in one of his children's birth records).
  • Joseph Tomlinson

Thomas, John and Joseph are all listed as being resident in Ballyneill at the times of their respective weddings. Now there's a fairly large gap between said weddings (1865, 1875 and 1880 respectively), so it's possible that either there are more missing children in the sequence or this is two conflated families with the church of Ireland wedding being an erroneous addition. That said, I'm fairly certain that there is a Thomas Tomlinson in the family, as he was a witness at Joseph Tomlinson's wedding in Moneyglass.

Sarah Jane, my confirmed ancestor, is living in Ballymultrea at the time of her 1871 wedding to a Henry Mackle. There is a 'James Pickring' (sic) as a witness to John Tomlinson's marriage in the Loup RC church in 1875. I believe that John Tomlinson senior was resident in the Loup at the end of his life and Henry and Sarah Jane ended up settling there.

For completeness:

Possible children of William Tomlinson of Belagherty:

  • Mary Anne Tomlinson (married a John Howard in Ballinderry Parish Church, 1854)
  • Margaret Jane Tomlinson (married a Hamilton Keown in same, 1860)
  • Sarah Tomlinson (married a John Woods in same, 1861)


Offline Sinann

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Re: Two possible death records for a Margaret TOMLINSON (1885 or 1905)
« Reply #4 on: Friday 01 May 20 23:15 BST (UK) »
Just looking at Thomas' death in 1917
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1917/05210/4440799.pdf
Rose gave his age as 60 which is a birth of about 1857ish
1901 gives about 1853
1911 gives about 1847 but ages in 1911 tend to be over the top because of the introduction of the old age pension.

The marriage record of 1865 gives his age as full which would be at least 21 which would give 1844ish.
I just can't help feeling there are two Thomas and Margarets or at least two Margarets. She gives her as 50 in 1901, 2 years older than Thomas, where as on the marriage in 1865 she is at least two years younger.
This ides does of course depend on two Thomas' marrying two Margarets in a fairly small area, not impossible but would need proving.
If there is only one Thomas he must have married twice. It could be the case he married into the Pickering home which would explain why he ended up in Ballymulderg and on the marriage and census he signs with a mark.
I'd be inclined to look through the RC parish records for a second marriage for him, or a second Thomas.

Offline Sinann

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Re: Two possible death records for a Margaret TOMLINSON (1885 or 1905)
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 02 May 20 10:36 BST (UK) »
I was looking at this a bit more last night and realized just how sparse Tomlinson families are, am I correct in thinking the first Margaret death is just at the time the births stop, there are no later births for a Thomas and Margaret.
Thomas must have been younger when he married than indicated on the marriage cert but that doesn't solve the two Margarets.
I still think there has to be two Margarets, Thomas would have been left with several small children when his wife died so a second marriage would be a good idea.
Any idea where all the children go after 1885, there are none with him in 1901.

Think I'll go over them again later, I just had a skim through last night.

Offline M_ONeill

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Re: Two possible death records for a Margaret TOMLINSON (1885 or 1905)
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 02 May 20 11:13 BST (UK) »
The sparseness of Tomlinsons in the area is something that I've noted as well, Sinann! Based on what I've found so far, there should probably be quite a few Tomlinsons in the area at the time of the censuses but there seem to be very few, at least in county Derry.

I've so far only found daughters for William Tomlinson of Belagherty, so I suppose it's possible that the Tomlinson name went extinct in that line via marriage, although I'm not confident I've found all his children in the records.

Known children of the catholic Tomlinsons (excluding the Mackles):

Thomas Tomlinson and Margaret Pickering (?):

- Mary Anne Tomlinson, b. 1870
- Margaret Jane Tomlinson, b. 1874
- Thomas Tomlinson, b. 1879 & died same.

John Tomlinson and Mary McCauley::

- Joseph Tomlinson, b. 1876
- Thomas Thomlinson, b 1878 (father - listed as 'William John')
- John Tomlinson, b. 1880

Joseph Tomlinson and Rose Ann Cushan:

- Sarah Tomlinson, b. 1884.


So of the three catholic Tomlinsons who would have passed on their surnames only John had any surviving boys, at least that I can find in the records. Thomas' daughters were potentially married by the time of the 1901 census (presumably one of them to somebody called Cullen, but I can find no record for that either). That still leaves John and Mary McCauley's sons that should theoretically have carried on the surname.

Offline M_ONeill

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Re: Two possible death records for a Margaret TOMLINSON (1885 or 1905)
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 02 May 20 12:13 BST (UK) »
I just found Thomas' daughter Mary in the 1901 census. She's living in Ballyneill More with her husband David Collins and their six children. Based on the age of the eldest child, they would have been married around 1890 or so. I've yet to find a marriage record for them, though.

Interestingly, they seem to be renting the land from a John Woods. This may be the same John Woods who married Sarah Tomlinson daughter of William in Ballinderry in 1861, as he was also of Ballyneill.

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Re: Two possible death records for a Margaret TOMLINSON (1885 or 1905)
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 05 May 20 20:00 BST (UK) »
A quick update on this as I've put together a few more pieces of evidence.

Firstly, I've found another possible child of John Tomlinson senior. Matilda Tomlinson married a Samuel Doyle at the RC chapel of Moneymore in 1873. She was listed as living in Ballyronan, Samuel in Ballymaguigan. The couple can be found in the 1901 census still living with a large family, still in Ballymaguigan, with Samuel and some of his sons working as Fishermen.

Secondly, I took a look at the griffiths valuation books to see if I could find any useful information about the Tomlinsons in there. There's a leased plot of land of about ten acres with two houses on it in Belagherty. The first house is rented by a William Tomlinson, the second by a Stephen Tomlinson.

I'm fairly certain this is the same protestant Tomlinson family I've already found in the records. William's portion of the land changes over to an Elizabeth Tomlinson sometime between 1860-63, with William presumably dying just outside the creation of civil registration. Elizabeth (or 'Eliza') dies in 1872 aged 65 with her land going to a John Woods. I believe this is the same John Woods who marries Sarah Tomlinson in 1861. I haven't found documentary evidence for this yet, but I believe that Elizabeth Tomlinson may be the wife of William Tomlinson, making her John Woods' mother-in-law.

Stephen Tomlinson also seems to be fairly clearly linked to this same family, as when he dies in 1872 at the age of 85 his land passes to a James Howard. I believe this James Howard is the son of John Howard and Mary Ann Tomlinson, another of William's daughters. Now Stephen also has another parcel of land; a cottier's house and land in Ballyneill. This also goes to James Howard on Stephen's death, but with all three of John Tomlinson's (presumed) children were resident in Ballyneill at the time of their marriages, it makes me wonder if there was some kind of connection.

As for John Tomlinson senior himself, I've found a listing in the Griffiths record in Ballynenagh for a John Tumilson (sic). He is renting a house from a Francis Marshall who seems to be renting out a series of houses on his almost 50 acres of land. The revision books show this land passing from Francis to a Mary Marshall (I presume his wife), then later to a John Marshall. John Tumilson's house passes back to John Marshall in the 1880s, which matches with John Tomlinson's death record, with him passing in Magherafelt workhouse in 1885.

So the two 'strands' of Tomlinsons in the area seems to be a little clearer, although I'm no closer on working out the mystery of the two Margarets. At the moment, I can only see the one candidate for her (their?) husband Thomas Tomlinson. Although it does seem strange to me that, assuming the John in Ballynenagh is the father) that all the children are living away from him before marriage.