Author Topic: Dedham Baptism record of Emma GINN  (Read 1638 times)

Offline Osserick

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Re: Dedham Baptism record of Emma GINN
« Reply #18 on: Tuesday 12 May 20 07:29 BST (UK) »
I don't think "toll-bar" means a pub, just a barrier to free flow of traffic = gate where a payment to be made. "Bars" in York are gates in the city walls.

LizzieL... His burial states he was a publican and Emma's marriage also states publican. The paper notice and the baps of his other children state toll gate keeper.
OSBORN - Middlesex, Lincolnshire, Rutland
GRAHAM - Ross & Cromarty
SPARY - Surrey, Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire
BOUTTELL - Middlesex, Suffolk
BARBER - Surrey, Bedfordshire
HINCKLEY - Glamorgan, Breconshire, Staffordshire
REES - Gloucestershire

Offline LizzieL

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Re: Dedham Baptism record of Emma GINN
« Reply #19 on: Tuesday 12 May 20 08:30 BST (UK) »
What do you mean by "his burial"? Parish burial records from 1812 onwards were in pre-printed books with the headings "Name", "Abode", "When buried", "Age", "By whom the Ceremony was performed". There was no column to enter occupation. I am looking at an image of the parish burial record now and Edward's entry has just this basic information, the vicar who performed it (Robert M Miller) has not entered any additional information, he has stuck to exactly what was required to be recorded. So "the burial" does not state he was a publican.

The only references to him being anything but a toll-gate keeper were on records made some years after his death - victualler on some marriage records, publican on Emma's.

All records made in his life time (children's baptisms) say he was a tollgate keeper.
he wrote his will on 11th May, a few days before his death - or rather dictated it because the handwriting is the same as the signature of Henry Spurling (attorney) and probable relative by marriage. In that he is only described as "Toll Keeper" and as I said earlier there is nothing in the household effects described in the will which would indicate he was a publican.

Edward's children would all have been quite young when he died, the youngest would hardly remember him at all, so they would go by what their mother told them. In 1841 Ann is a grocer, close to a victualler, maybe that is where that occupation came from. Edward is clearly not Emma's father, maybe her real father - name unknown - was a publican.

In my tree I have an illegitimate relative who on his marriage record invented a father with the forename and occupation of his stepfather and his own (and mother's) surname.
The stepfather could not have been his biological father as he was in the army serving overseas at time of conception.

I have also found in my tree several instances where a father has been "bigged up" on a marriage record. Particularly if they were deceased or lived a long way from where the marriage took place - who's going to argue even if they were able to read.
My 2 x great grandfather became a butler, adopted his mother's maiden surname as his middle name (although baptised plain William), added the same middle name to his father's name, who became a farmer instead of an Ag Lab.
Census records and baptism records for his children tell a different story!



Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Lanark: Scott (soldier went to Jersey CI)
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott

Offline LizzieL

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Re: Dedham Baptism record of Emma GINN
« Reply #20 on: Tuesday 12 May 20 08:41 BST (UK) »
A bit of a tangent - the Spurling connection.
William Spurling and Judith had a son John baptised on 26 Nov 1809 b 18th Oct. I think he is the one who inherits the edgetool business in 1831. I had thought he had died in 1835, but that is a different John Spurling. There is a John Spurling living in Lambeth with right place and year of birth and wife with right forname to match a marriage in Colchester of a John Spurling father William - edgetool maker. So it looks like John gave up the business in Dedham and left Ann Ginn to deal with enquiries as to its disposal. We know her maiden name was Spurling but not what relation she was to William Spurling.
The John Spurling who witnessed both Edward Ginn's will and William Spurling's will, might be the elderly one who died in 1835. 
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Lanark: Scott (soldier went to Jersey CI)
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott

Offline jonw65

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Re: DEDHAM BAPTISM LOOK-UP 1833 - EMMA GINN
« Reply #21 on: Tuesday 12 May 20 09:00 BST (UK) »
Edward Ginn married firstly Sarah Cheese 27 Nov 1811 x Lic in Lexden Essex (both single)
 - Sarah Ginn, wife of Edward, was buried Lexden 05.03.1818 (abode Aldham)

Perhaps he was a publican back then?

Borough of Colchester Quarter Sessions bundle, 1814
certificates of good fame and alehouse keepers' recognizances
of Edward Ginn for the Sun and Joseph Jaggard for the Chequers, both in parish of Lexden
https://www.essexarchivesonline.co.uk/result_details.aspx?ThisRecordsOffSet=8&id=951981

There is also an Edward Ginn burial in Lexden, 9 Sep 1813
Age 60, Married Man
Possibly his dad? BT here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-YSLX-BY5?i=647&cat=513953


Offline jonw65

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Re: Dedham Baptism record of Emma GINN
« Reply #22 on: Tuesday 12 May 20 09:06 BST (UK) »
Going back a year
Quarter Sessions bundle, 1813
certificates of good fame and alehouse keepers' recognizances
of Elizabeth Ginn for the Sun, of John Brewer for the Leather Bottle, of William Girling for the King's Head, of Joseph Jaggard for the Chequers, all in parish of Lexden
https://www.essexarchivesonline.co.uk/result_details.aspx?ThisRecordsOffSet=5&id=951970

Offline jonw65

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Re: Dedham Baptism record of Emma GINN
« Reply #23 on: Tuesday 12 May 20 09:09 BST (UK) »
Now on to 1819
Essex Turnpikes Trust
Daily accounts of Shenfield, Widford, Leighs gates
include totals of tolls exacted, less wages and expenses of gatekeepers, 1 January - 10 July 1819;
account book of Edward Ginn of Shenfield, toll-collector, 1 January - 3 April 1819
https://www.essexarchivesonline.co.uk/result_details.aspx?ThisRecordsOffSet=3&id=75586

Offline LizzieL

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Re: Dedham Baptism record of Emma GINN
« Reply #24 on: Tuesday 12 May 20 09:10 BST (UK) »
Good find, that might explain it - so everyone could be right!
Yesterday I looked for baptisms of an Edward Ginn which would fit his age at death and best candidate was Edward s/o Edward and Elizabeth. I can't find now where I wrote it down now. Had a clear out of old shopping lists!
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Lanark: Scott (soldier went to Jersey CI)
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott

Offline LizzieL

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Re: Dedham Baptism record of Emma GINN
« Reply #25 on: Tuesday 12 May 20 09:15 BST (UK) »
I searched for Ginn on SEAX and didn't find that, I think I may have said search for all term (Ginn and Dedham) not search for any term. I am used to searching more common surnames so I have to be specific on place as well or I get thousands of results returned
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Lanark: Scott (soldier went to Jersey CI)
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott

Offline jonw65

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Re: Dedham Baptism record of Emma GINN
« Reply #26 on: Tuesday 12 May 20 09:18 BST (UK) »
Going back a year
Quarter Sessions bundle, 1813
certificates of good fame and alehouse keepers' recognizances
of Elizabeth Ginn for the Sun

Burial at Lexden, 17 March 1814
Elizabeth Ginn, Widow.
Age 58
BT here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-YSLX-1MG?i=656&cat=513953

Yesterday I looked for baptisms of an Edward Ginn which would fit his age at death and best candidate was Edward s/o Edward and Elizabeth.

So Edward Ginn dies 1813. His widow then takes over the Sun public house? From him or whoever. Then when Elizabeth dies in 1814 her son Edward gets the licence?
It would make sense!
John