Is this a permanent brick wall or is there hope? Gypsy CLARK, Sussex

[rebekahm28]

My great great granny was Mary Ann Clark born 1864 in Sussex. I do have her on the 1871, 81, 1901 and 1911 census so I dont need help there. I have her marriage and children so not looking for those thanks, been researching them for many years.   *My question: Can I get further back on her mother's side? Her parents were James Clark born 1845 in Hellingly and GRACE Clark born 1847 in Hellingly according to the census, I believe them to be cousins or 2nd cousins as their marriage cert does indeed give both surnames as Clark and they were Romany gypsies living in wagons. But even researching James' tree, I can't fit Grace in there. They married later in life a couple of years before Grace died. There was no father named on the cert for Grace, just a line, which suggests illegitimacy.  James' father was named however. We know that in 1867 they were in Rye, and in 1871 they were in Buxted, in 1873 they were in Ticehurst, in 1880 they were in Guestling and 1881 'visiting' in Westham; then married 1891 in Horsmonden, Kent. She died two years later in Cuckfield, Sussex. Any ideas welcome. I have done DNA but cant find anyone actively researching James and Grace.

[PaulineJ]

Located any birth certificates for Grace?
Romanies were pretty diligent about baptisms. Tried the local churches?

[rebekahm28]

Im pretty sure Grace's birth wasnt registered as Ive looked. But the times probably come to re-search for baptisms thanks.

[Liz_in_Sussex]

Hi,

A couple of things occurred to me - as Grace married so many years after leaving her family I wonder if she gave the name Clark simply because that was what she had called herself for most of her life? The blank bit for her father could well be because she was illegitimate or perhaps if she had no contact with her family (and he had died young) she simply didn't remember it?

Or - this is very far fetched as she was quite young - could she have married a Clark before meeting up with James?

I have looked at the baptisms of all the Graces in Hellingly and its contiguous parishes - there are only 2 that are around the correct time and I have found marriages for both of them which last beyond the time your Grace is with James.

Perhaps her family came from further afield in Sussex? My gypsy ancestors moved around the north west of the county and the other branch (Clark) in Brighton but by the mid 19th century had pretty much settled in one place. I will have a look at my Clarks a bit later as I have to go out now. 

Liz

[rebekahm28]

Liz, I never thought of her adopting the Clark name earlier than perhaps she should have, because she had been with James for so long! Oh my goodness if that is the case then I don't have much hope finding her maiden name. I'm hoping she told the truth on her marriage cert and census, if so it does say she was a spinster at marriage not widowed, and the census says born Hellingly. I have close DNA links with a Richard Clarke of gypsy heritage (his family added the 'e' later) but cant place him in my tree so it's spurred me on a bit.   Thankyou so much.

[jonw65]

1871 in Buxted, Grace's place of birth is N K, as are the rest of the family
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFD3-N65

What is the name of the two year old son?

In 1881 in Westham it looks as if Grace is born Sussex Shoreham, and James in born Kent
Where are the children? Has the marital status of James been altered?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27W-TY3J

Very unlucky with the enumerators, shocking handwriting. But I can't see them in 1891

We know that in 1867 they were in Rye, and in 1871 they were in Buxted, in 1873 they were in Ticehurst, in 1880 they were in Guestling and 1881 'visiting' in Westham

And in 1884 they were in Alfriston where they had an unhappy scene with someone and Grace got a bit angry (Eastbourne Gazette, 25 June)

[rebekahm28]

JONW65:  Children I have for them, and its bad writing on the forms, possibly been a few baby deaths too maybe: Mary Ann 1864 (my connection), James 1867, Samuel 1869, William 1872, Alice 1873, Emma 1878, Stephen 1880. I'm going to re-look at the 1881 thanks. I am absolutely excited about the Alfriston incident in 1884, I had access to newspaper archives on FindMyPast until I went back to Ancestry a few months ago. I had thought of Grace as being a gentle soul (the name is misleading), can I be a total pain and ask for more info on this incident?

[osprey]

the children are in Guestling in 1881.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27W-5KZX

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27W-5KD9

[rebekahm28]

Yes, Mary Ann seems to be caring for them while they were visiting in Westham. One of the children had been born in Guestling the year before.