Long shot based on very little

[Greaves]

I know that James GILBERT married Frances FAVEL in 1818 in Kensington. I also know that they had seven children together: Susannah (1819), Eliza (1821), Sophia (1823), Sarah (1825), Mary (1834), James (1838) and William (1841). In 1841 and subsequent censuses they were in the Southwark/Bermondsey area of South London/Surrey.

With regard to James, I know that he was a carpenter and that hedied in 1845 in Southwark, being buried at Southwark Chapel as a Wesleyan. Whether he was a non-conformist I am uncertain. He was aged 52, so was born c 1793. Where he was born is a mystery, all I know from the 1841C is that he was not born in Surrey.

His wife Frances was born ib Huntingdonshire, though the couple married - and possibly met - in Kensington.

His first five children were all baptised in Anglican churches: Susannah in Kensington, Eliza & Sophia in Newington, Sarah and Mary in Southwark. I can't find baptisms records for the two boys, nor given that they were born after 1837 can I find birth certificates.

The religious affiliations are confusing. Eliza was buried as a non-conformist in Victoria Park Cemetery in Hackney.

So several questions:

(1) Where and when was James Gilbert born?

(2) Where are the baptisms and/or birth certificates for James (c1838) and William (c1841)? At the time of the 1841C, William was only 9 wks.

I am not hopeful of answers, given the minimal information, but you never know. Please surprise me.

[chempat]

Just to put, 1841 census 6th June, 9 weeks before gives end of March, so recorded, if very prompt, in 1st quarter, but more likely second quarter of 1841, for William.

Presumably you have checked out late baptisms?

[Mowsehowse]

Does it not give birth place in 1851 census (or later ones perhaps) ?

[louisa maud]

What about following census

Louisa Maud

PS, sorry mowsehowse you beat me to it

[Ruskie]

With regard to James, I know that he was a carpenter and that he died in 1845 in Southwark, being buried at Southwark Chapel as a Wesleyan. Whether he was a non-conformist I am uncertain. He was aged 52, so was born c 1793. Where he was born is a mystery, all I know from the 1841C is that he was not born in Surrey.

James only appeared on the 1841 unfortunately. 

Greaves, have you located and viewed the original parish records for the marriage of James and Frances, and the births/baptisms of their children, in case there is any mention of where James is from? 

[Greaves]

I agree that William's birth would - if registered - have probably been either Q1 or Q2, more likely Q2. However, I have checked for births in those quarters - and similarly for James - and not found an appropriate one.

As for late baptisms, yes I have checked both London and Surrey on Ancestry, and can't find anything suitable. I have failed in the past due to surnames being transcribed in a very surprising manner, but I think I have looked at the most obvious bus-spellings. I would be happy to be contradicted.

As for the 1851C, James is 13 and William 10, both born in Bermondsey. Both ages are consistent with 1841, thus confirming the birth years.

All other children were baptised.. so I am surprised by the absence of such a record for the two boys. I am wondering if the ambiguity about the family's religious affiliation could explain the absence. Perhaps, the family changed allegiance around about the time of the births. Perhaps, they were only baptised as non-conformists.

If they were baptised as non-conformists that makes life more difficult, as locating such records in my experience is not easy. I have no idea where to look for non-conformist records in the Bermondsey/Southwark area. This is why in another thread, I asked if anyone knew where the records for the Southwark Chapel were deposited, as that is where their father was buried in 1845.

PS Yes I have looked at the baptisms of the other children and sadly they give no clue as to where James came from. The marriage of James and Frances is of no help, just stating that at the time they were both members of the parish of St Mary Abbots in Kensington. The baptisms just confirm that James was a carpenter and the family's residence in Kensington, Newington, Southwark and Bermondsey. I know for sure from later censuses that Frances was from Brampton in Huntingdonshire and have found her baptism and birth family. But James only appears on the 1841C, where of course, it only states that he wasn't born in Surrey.

It is worth noting that Some baptisms were a few years after the birth. So the two boys could have been baptised together a few years later, but if they were I can find no record. I am beginning to think it will require someone with access and knowledge to non-conformist records to unlock the puzzle.

[louisa maud]

I have always been led to believe that for a marriage to take place the couple have to have been baptized, but my guess is that not everyone checked



Louisa Maud

[jonw65]

Bermondsey, Southwark Chapel, Long Lane, Wesleyan
Baptisms and burials are held at TNA in Class RG4
Not sure that they have baptisms after 1837
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2491958

James Gilbert buried 18 May 1845, age 52
of 24 St Georges Place, died of fever.

Is Gelbert on ancestry.

Greaves, please don't forget that Victoria Park Cemetery is/was in Bethnal Green (now Meath Gardens, not in Hackney)!!
And the religious persusaion of the deceased is not given in the registers, you do get the name of the person who performed the ceremony.
It was non-denominational, I  would imagine that the biggest single group buried there were C of E.
John

[Mowsehowse]

Ooops..... sorry.
Must do better!!