Author Topic: Seeking Alice Walters or Walker?  (Read 490 times)

Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Seeking Alice Walters or Walker?
« Reply #9 on: Friday 12 June 20 13:49 BST (UK) »
Are these the only female children born to James & Sarah Keys?

Sarah      1830
Eliza        1832
Susan      1834>>>>>>>>>>see bunbury125 reply 3
Mary        1838
Mary Ann 1843
Emily       1847 >>>>>>>>>>>see jonw65 reply 8
Jane        1852

Have you accounted for each of them on the censuses either married or single ?

You mentioned Susan married 1863

1871 Old Toll Gate Cottage, Postwick, Blofield, Norfolk
John H   Goffin   Head   1801   Norfolk
Susan H Goffin   Wife   1833   Wickhampton Norfolk
Ernest H   Goffin   Son  1868   Norfolk

Is this Susan Key?

1861 Toll Gate Lane, Postwick, Blofield, Norfolk
Susanna   Key   Head   1834   Charwoman   Wickhampton, Norfolk
James   Key   Son           1854    Longwood, Norfolk (mmn blank)
Alice M   Key   Daughter   1860      Postwick, Norfolk (middle name Maria mmn blank)

Interesting that Susan named a daughter Alice

I have added a snippet of the 1881 census showing surname James & Sarah Key's granddaughter Alice



Offline Bunbury125

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Re: Seeking Alice Walters or Walker?
« Reply #10 on: Friday 12 June 20 17:30 BST (UK) »
Are these the only female children born to James & Sarah Keys?

Sarah      1830
Eliza        1832
Susan      1834>>>>>>>>>>see bunbury125 reply 3
Mary        1838
Mary Ann 1843
Emily       1847 >>>>>>>>>>>see jonw65 reply 8
Jane        1852

Have you accounted for each of them on the censuses either married or single ?

You mentioned Susan married 1863

1871 Old Toll Gate Cottage, Postwick, Blofield, Norfolk
John H   Goffin   Head   1801   Norfolk
Susan H Goffin   Wife   1833   Wickhampton Norfolk
Ernest H   Goffin   Son  1868   Norfolk

Is this Susan Key?

1861 Toll Gate Lane, Postwick, Blofield, Norfolk
Susanna   Key   Head   1834   Charwoman   Wickhampton, Norfolk
James   Key   Son           1854    Longwood, Norfolk (mmn blank)
Alice M   Key   Daughter   1860      Postwick, Norfolk (middle name Maria mmn blank)

Interesting that Susan named a daughter Alice

I have added a snippet of the 1881 census showing surname James & Sarah Key's granddaughter Alice
Hi ,
Thanks for your reply

I have traced all the children of James and Sarah here's what I think happened to the girls:
Susan Key. B 1833
She is my direct ancestor through her son James b 1854.( father James Robert Goodbody)
She had Alice and then Married John High Goffin/Goffen. Alice Maria Key Goffin married Harry Bland Greaves 1894. Susan had 3x children with John Goffin: Jane, Ernest &Alexander. After John Goffin died in 1878 Susan Married Charles Lusher in 1879.

Sarah Key b1830, became a domestic servant in London. She married James Laing in Camberwell in 1860. 2x Children Emily b1866 & Marion b1870 both died 1873.

Eliza Key b 1832 Was Domestic Servant, London she  married James Anthony Wilsher or Wiltshire in 1864, one child Emily Jane b&d 1867.

Mary b1838 died 1840

Mary Ann b1843 died 1863

Emily Key
b1849 Married Henry George Dawes c1873/4 Lived in Islington,  London 3x Children John Edward, Sarah Jane & Frederick.

Charlotte Key born &died 1847

Jane Key b 1852 married Robert Waters Sharman 1871 many,  children no Alice.

I have checked pretty thoroughly but only online due to distance. I might have made mistakes. As it standshere doesn't seem to be any way Alice is related. Unless one of the boys indulged in some extra marital gymnastics with someone named Wallis/Wallace/Wallens and James and Sarah helped with the child? Or she was a more distant relation and Granddaughter was easiest to explained to the ennumerator.

Thanks for taking the time
To check and to reply

Regards B
Reid, Munro, kempster: Edinburgh
Sutherland, Gunn: Caithness
Ferguson: Fife
McIntyre: Liverpool
Key: Newcastle On Tyne/ Norfolk
Drake, Lake, Brinded: Norfolk
Philipson, Kellet, Peet, Storrow, Leck, Gifford Willan, Dover Dowker, Casson Benson, Verty: Westmorland & Cumberland & Lancashire
Ludford, Allen, lockwood: Leicestershire & Warwickshire
Trotter, Collier, Pollard, Cresswell: Northumberland

Offline jonw65

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Re: Seeking Alice Walters or Walker?
« Reply #11 on: Friday 12 June 20 20:03 BST (UK) »
Emily
b1849 Married Henry George Dawes c1873/4

Married in 1898, as I have already posted :)
 


Offline jonw65

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Re: Seeking Alice Walters or Walker?
« Reply #12 on: Friday 12 June 20 20:33 BST (UK) »
3x Children John Edward, Sarah Jane & Frederick

But...
Baptism, St Matthias, Caledonian Road, 4 Nov 1877
Born Oct. 16. 77
John Edward
parents Henry + Emily Dawes
1 Albert Terrace
father Carman

Birth registration
DAWES, JOHN  EDWARD     
Mother's Maiden Surname: GAGE 
GRO Reference: 1877  D Quarter in ISLINGTON  Volume 01B  Page 275

In 1881 in Islington, Henry G Dawes has a wife Emily, 33, it seems to say she was born Yorkshire. Two sons. But is this the same Emily? :-\

It's open to doubt.

Offline jonw65

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Re: Seeking Alice Walters or Walker?
« Reply #13 on: Friday 12 June 20 22:10 BST (UK) »
Emily Key had an illegitimate son James, baptized at Freethorpe, 18 April 1869. Abode Postwick.
Birth dates given in the register, but not for the illegitimate ones! (Does not seem to be the James registered in Milton district in 1867)
Parish register
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRP3-9JR?i=27

So that perhaps makes her a lot less likely to be the mother of Alice!
But the mystery of Emily deepens...

Offline Bunbury125

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Re: Seeking Alice Walters or Walker?
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 13 June 20 16:32 BST (UK) »
Emily Key had an illegitimate son James, baptized at Freethorpe, 18 April 1869. Abode Postwick.
Birth dates given in the register, but not for the illegitimate ones! (Does not seem to be the James registered in Milton district in 1867)
Parish register
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRP3-9JR?i=27

So that perhaps makes her a lot less likely to be the mother of Alice!
But the mystery of Emily deepens...

.....Strange thing is  I can't find Alice in 1871. James's birth isn't on the GRO index  and the only likely candidates(as far as I can tell) for Frederick John Dawes's birth on GRO have men of Inwood or Chadwick . Also one of those Frederick's died aged 2.
Emily was the mother of Sarah Jane in 1887 but the boys had 2 different mothers it seems. Still looking to see what happened to James. Unless I have missed something (which is very possible) Something was definitely going on in that family. Also I wonder why Emily and Henry didn't marry for so long.
Lots of mystery there.🤔
Reid, Munro, kempster: Edinburgh
Sutherland, Gunn: Caithness
Ferguson: Fife
McIntyre: Liverpool
Key: Newcastle On Tyne/ Norfolk
Drake, Lake, Brinded: Norfolk
Philipson, Kellet, Peet, Storrow, Leck, Gifford Willan, Dover Dowker, Casson Benson, Verty: Westmorland & Cumberland & Lancashire
Ludford, Allen, lockwood: Leicestershire & Warwickshire
Trotter, Collier, Pollard, Cresswell: Northumberland

Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Seeking Alice Walters or Walker?
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 14 June 20 14:01 BST (UK) »

Also I wonder why Emily and Henry didn't marry for so long.

Lots of mystery there.🤔

Henry is single in 1871 (1891c Henry & Emily at 29 Brewery Road Islington)

9 Brewery Road, Islington St Andrew, Islington
John   Dawes Head Wharf Clerk?   Surrey
Eliza   Dawes Wife Islington Middlesex
Eliza Ann Dawes Daughter   St Pancras
Ann Matida   Dawes Niece Shop woman   Brighton Sussex
Henery George Dawes Nephew   Van boy    Pob Dittoed
James Harris Friend Salesman   Oxfordshire
RG10 Piece 267 Folio   90Page   25

Perhaps scrolling through the above 1871 census to look to see if maybe an Emily ? was living close by

I think this might be Henry's birth entry
although FreeBMD has Brighton and page 346  :-\

Henry George DAWES mmn BREEDEN
1851  D Quarter in BRIGHTHELMSTON  Volume 07  Page 246   

Could it be that Henry was married  and that's why they waited until 1898, even though he's noted as a batchelor
They marry at
All Saints, Battle Bridge, 2 May 1898.
Bachelor and spinster,
her father James Key (deceased) Farm Laborer

In 1881 in Islington, Henry G Dawes has a wife Emily, 33, it seems to say she was born Yorkshire. Two sons. But is this the same Emily? :-\
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q279-XQP5


There is this entry
WEH married Frances they can be found on 1881 census in Marylebone

Sep 1877   Marylebone   1a   1191               
DAWES   Henry George      
HARDWICKE   William Edward            
MULLIN   Mary            
SPENCER   Frances

possible son for Henry & Mary Dawes nee Mullin

Henry Seymour DAWES mmn MULLIN
1879  S Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 128

Henry died

Henry Seymour DAWES age 18
1898 J Quarter in CAMBERWELL  Volume 01D  Page 436   

At the moment I cannot place Henry, Mary & Henry Dawes (1879) on the 1881 census  ???

Is this Henry's death - Do you have in on 1911c?

Henry George DAWES died age 65 
1915  S Quarter in ISLINGTON  Volume 01B  Page 176


            


Offline Bunbury125

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Re: Seeking Alice Walters or Walker?
« Reply #16 on: Monday 15 June 20 10:58 BST (UK) »
 in ISLINGTON  Volume 01B  Page 176
[/quote]
Is this Henry's death - Do you have in on 1911c?

Henry George DAWES died age 65 
1915  S Quarter in ISLINGTON  Volume 01B  Page 176

 Hi,
Looking through  GRO indexes and censuses I think it probably was the Henry who married Emily.

Though I think there was at least 2 Henry George Dawes's  in the area. Or one who had the morals of a tomcat, was  possibly a bigamist and randier than the proverbial billy goat. Fortunately for him he is listed as both a horsekeeper and a carman so we know he had transport. 
I can't find the one who married Mary Mullins on the census either. I can tell that the same year(1877) that Henry Seymour Dawes was born John Edward Dawes(was also born. Frederick was born in 1874 to yet another mother. As we know Frederick and John are with Henry and Emily in 1881 Possibly my Emily or another Emily born in York.
It's definitely my Emily in 1891 with the others and her daughter Sarah Jane.
What I think I can be certain of is although Emily was daughted of James Key (my 3xggg) she(having had an illegitamate child called James in the same year)  wasn't the mother of the mysterious Alice whom I have yet to find. The silver lining is that I do love a mystery.😊

Thanks for your help.
Regards
B
Reid, Munro, kempster: Edinburgh
Sutherland, Gunn: Caithness
Ferguson: Fife
McIntyre: Liverpool
Key: Newcastle On Tyne/ Norfolk
Drake, Lake, Brinded: Norfolk
Philipson, Kellet, Peet, Storrow, Leck, Gifford Willan, Dover Dowker, Casson Benson, Verty: Westmorland & Cumberland & Lancashire
Ludford, Allen, lockwood: Leicestershire & Warwickshire
Trotter, Collier, Pollard, Cresswell: Northumberland