John (Jack) Jay

[keyboard86]

I agree, does seem to be the only one I could locate, if his birth was registered, which by law it should have been, a real puzzle, Florence would have been c 41, and Isabel F aged c 12, have you located Isabel F after the 1939?
Keyboard86
PS were their any  witnesses at the marriage of John?

[Del 80]

There is a death, in 1964 for an ISOBEL Jay (slightly different spelling) at Derby, aged 52, I can't see a marriage for her......the two witnesses at John and Vera's marriage were E B Morgan and either D or
 B Morgan....interestingly on the same street as Isabel, on the 1939 register are an Eric and Beatrice Morgan, he seems to be something high up in The Coal Board, or it's forerunner.....maybe just a coincidence though.....

[keyboard86]

OK, looks like you may possibly have to take a punt on that birth certificate, the GRO Index do not cover 1923 Births for some reason, so I cannot determine whether Illegetimate or a Jay married a Jay, or a Widow married a Jay maiden name Jay?
Keyboard86

[Del 80]

Yes, it's a strange one this.....the only death I can see for John Jay that fits, is in 1993 in Cardiganshire, Wales.... the birth date tallies with the one given for him on the 1939 register, although I can't be 100% certain that it is him.....

[[Ray]]

Just for the notes pile . . . . .
If he was RAF then he wouldn't appear on 1939 list.

AYTO?
A fairly common surname around Somerset is ATYO / ATYEO

[Del 80]

Thanks for that.....he was born 1923, so in 1939 would be only 16 years old, he must have joined the RAF at some point between then and his marriage in 1946....definitely AYTO, Vera was from Lincolnshire, a quite common (although unusual) surname here......

[suzard]

Dont want to confuse with this information but may be worth perusal??

John/Jack Jay married Vera as John William Jay and the marriage cert shows his father as Frank Jay
This is the marriage of his parents
25 Dec 1909
Frank Jay 25 B Clerk 174 Baker St Alvaston Derby father George William Jay occ Carter
Florence Beatrice Kniveton 27 S Duffield father Alfred Kniveton occ Brasswork foreman
Witnesses Alfred Kniveton Alfred Kniveton (was entered twice) J W Pawlsen
all signed

so possibly John's middle name of William was after his grandfather George William??

His mother Florence Beatrice was born30July 1882 and died 5 Sept 1971
Probate
Florence beatrice Jay of the Pastures Hospital Mickleover Derbys died 5 Sept 1971 Administration Newcastle Upon TYne 18 Jan
Effects £845

Did Florence Beatrice live/work or was a patient at the hospital?

The Pastures was known as a lunatic asylum - it was a mental health hospital - my aunt was a patient there (on and off)from 1950's after death of her young son until late 1970's when she commited suicide)
Did Florence have any other children who maybe died in infancy ??
Was John William Jay her son or a child her and her husband Frank reared??
If so what name was he registered in??
I did some derbyshire research for a frien and there was a female who I could not find a birth reg for -when I showed the research to my friend's mother (in her nineties ) she said oh yes that's aunt so and so they found her on an ash tip and reared her as part of the family -as they used to do in those days .
All kinds of scenarios are possibilities
It may be worth looking for Jay illegit births -or Jay s who married and were widowed or died and so the child (John) went to other members of the family
All just my thoughts
It may be worth applying for John 's RAF records
Possibly posting Vera's picture on the armed forces section could give further insight into who she served with - note that she was a nurse

I will see if I can find anything further later today - hope this hasnt totally confused
Vera Jay died 1976  and if John's death is the one in Cardiganshire is it possible he remarried?


Suz

[Del 80]

Suz, very interesting thanks.....where did you  get John WILLIAM Jay from ?.....I have the marriage certificate now, and it just says John Jay.....J W Paulson / Pawlson was Florence's Brother-in-Law.....what is confusing me is that there is a John Jay, born STAFFORDSHIRE, in 1923, mmn JAY, like I said Staffordshire and Derbyshire do share a border, so not impossible, also perhaps whoever registered the birth gave her MARRIED name, instead of her MAIDEN name of Kniveton....or, as you suggest he was simply brought up by Frank and Florence Kniveton.......

[suzard]

Apologies - think I am mixing John Jay m Vera ayto with John William Jay m Vera mustoe (possibly because John Jay's grandfather had the middle name William
Here I go causing more confusion!!!
Suz