Author Topic: A question for the scientific Rootschatters  (Read 2541 times)

Offline Roobarb

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A question for the scientific Rootschatters
« on: Sunday 21 June 20 14:02 BST (UK) »
I'm interested to know about transmission of coronavirus on surfaces. I know there are all sorts of factors involved in this such as the type of surface and the ambient conditions but my question doesn't particularly relate to how long the virus lasts on those surfaces.

This is my question - I often quarantine some of my shopping in a plastic box in the garage. If there were objects stored there and the virus was present on one of the objects I put into it a day or two later, could the virus transfer from the second object to the first just by being next to it? Would I have to continue storing the first object for as long as the second? Would the virus transfer to the plastic box?
This is just a matter of interest, I know that the virus starts to break down even after a short time on surfaces.


While I'm here I'd like to ask a second question if I may. We're told about the length of times the virus lasts on hard surfaces and on fabrics but what about soft plastics such as carrier bags?

There were some Rootschatters with scientific knowledge who kindly replied to my questions some time ago, I'd very much appreciate their input again.
Bell, Salter, Street - Devon, Middlesbrough.
Lickess- North Yorkshire, Middlesbrough.
Etherington - North Yorks and Durham.
Barker- North Yorks
Crooks- Durham
Forster- North Yorks/Durham
Newsam, Pattison, Proud - North Yorks.
Timothy, Griffiths, Jones - South Wales

Offline trystan

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Re: A question for the scientific Rootschatters
« Reply #1 on: Monday 22 June 20 09:07 BST (UK) »
Nobody has answered you so far. It's probably because we all feel ill-qualified to answer. I'm ill-qualified too. As an engineer though I like to kid myself and think of myself at times as a practical scientist!

A virus is not a living organism, and it doesn't multiply and grow on 'things'. A virus loses its potency or viability the longer it is outside the wonderful environment of the human (or whatever living host it likes).

So it likes moisture. If it's warm then it will have less moisture and deteriorate quicker. Labs store viruses in freezers. Hopefully, not next to their ice creams.

You can't see a virus even with the best optical microscope in the world. It's miniscule. It can only be viewed  indirectly by a scanning electron microscope.

So let's think for a minute it you can transfer a virus from one surface to the next by objects touching each other.

We could imagine that if we had two hard plastics next to each other, entirely flat, then the surface finish could be excellent and uniform and there could be opportunity there for a miniscule thing to transfer across.

When you then start looking at other material, like soft plastics with creases the the contact area at any one time is much reduced. Also if you think of how miniscule a virus is, it only has to be on an item that has even the slightest amount of texture (even texture invisible to the human eye) for it to be almost completely lost in this texture.

It's a bit like if we lowered you gently into a rainforest. If we imagine you are the virus, and the rainforest is the texture of the material. If we then got a massive piece of cloth and lowered it on the roof of the rainforest and then removed it to see if you were then stuck on it, then we'd be unlikely to find you on that cloth.

The other thing worth bearing in mind is that it is believed that the severity of Covid-19 in individuals is related to the 'viral load' they get. So if you get a great big dose of it off something or somebody then it could hit you hard. If you get a tiny viral load then your body is much more likely to be able to fend it off.

So if we think of some shopping. There could be a proper good dose of a virus if somebody has coughed or sneezed into your bag or salivated all over your  huge bar of chocolate that you've treated yourself to. That's not very likely to have happened though. Yes there could be a transfer of the virus onto the shopping, and that's why it's a good idea to think it through and quarantine items if possible.

It's a bit of a balance though I find. We have "click and collect". We normally get our email that it's been prepared and picked early in the morning, around 7am. We then collect it in the afternoon. So in that time items in the bags have already had some seven hours quarantine before we go to Asda to collect. I pack the car myself, and when we get home we bring the shopping into the hallway. I put perishables straight in the fridge or freezer. I accept the risk there could be a virus on them. I then wash my hands again, and then take out all the non-perishables out of their bags and space them apart in the hallway. This should dry out any virus. I then wash my hands again. We don't touch the items in the hallway until the following day.

Those are my thoughts on it. There is probably a better way of doing it, but it is a balance of risk. The fact that we do "click and collect" has probably reduced our risk massively before any other considerations.

I'll throw this thought-grenade in as a closing remark:
Perhaps getting a little tiny dose of the virus wouldn't be so bad after all?

Trystan
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Offline groom

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Re: A question for the scientific Rootschatters
« Reply #2 on: Monday 22 June 20 09:50 BST (UK) »
Apparently according to the latest reports, the virus likes the cold and that is  one reason why new cases have been reported from meat packing factories in England and Wales. Also they have discovered that freezing it puts it in to hibernation rather than killing it.

Has it been proved that anyone has ever caught the virus through touching things that have been bought or delivered, rather than through direct contact with an affected person?
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Offline Gadget

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Re: A question for the scientific Rootschatters
« Reply #3 on: Monday 22 June 20 09:57 BST (UK) »
Info here which seems to summarize most info that I've read about it:

https://www.healthyfood.com/advice/can-freezing-your-food-kill-coronavirus/

Also info piece on Sky News before most commercial breaks. 

Add-
We wash our groceries in soap and water and rinse well. Perishables are put in clean bags and stored in the fridge and taken out in batches to be washed - maybe OTT bit we're still alive  :-X

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Offline pharmaT

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Re: A question for the scientific Rootschatters
« Reply #4 on: Monday 22 June 20 10:08 BST (UK) »
A virus cannot replicate outside a living host so it cannot spread as such.  It can, in theory be transferred from one item to another by touch.  I am neurotic about cleaning stuff that comes into the house and recleaning stuff if it touches other things with washing my hands every couple of minutes.  These days putting the shopping  away takes hours. 

When I can I open things using no touch technique (eg, pack of cereal bars) and wash mu hands before moving onto the next item. 
Campbell, Dunn, Dickson, Fell, Forest, Norie, Pratt, Somerville, Thompson, Tyler among others

Offline Roobarb

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Re: A question for the scientific Rootschatters
« Reply #5 on: Monday 22 June 20 10:22 BST (UK) »
Thank you for replies.

Trystan, as an engineer your scientific knowledge does seem quite extensive. I found your explanation informative and quite entertaining! How did you know that I treated myself to a big bar of chocolate?  ;D  As for a tiny dose of the virus - as a (not severe) asthmatic I just daren't chance it.

PharmaT, I dispose of outer wrappings where possible and commonsense tells me that anything inside hasn't been touched by human hand, just packed by machinery in the factory. I am pretty scrupulous about wiping everything  else.

The news about cold environments is certainly interesting, perhaps I should leave my tinned goods out in the sunshine when the weather is nice rather than putting them in the cooler garage.
Bell, Salter, Street - Devon, Middlesbrough.
Lickess- North Yorkshire, Middlesbrough.
Etherington - North Yorks and Durham.
Barker- North Yorks
Crooks- Durham
Forster- North Yorks/Durham
Newsam, Pattison, Proud - North Yorks.
Timothy, Griffiths, Jones - South Wales

Offline gaffy

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Re: A question for the scientific Rootschatters
« Reply #6 on: Monday 22 June 20 10:26 BST (UK) »
IMHO as a lay person, observing matters some months downstream of the original occurrence...

While we undoubtedly know a lot more than we used to about this virus, the continuing lack of consensus among scientific / medical experts and their regular expression of diverse opinions on any one of a range of aspects relating to this virus, suggests to me that we're still at the 'unknown unknowns' stage of understanding.  Which is scary.


Offline Gadget

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Re: A question for the scientific Rootschatters
« Reply #7 on: Monday 22 June 20 11:12 BST (UK) »
gaffy's comment is in keeping with some of the findings in the latest ONS study of the impact of covid on social/lifestyle aspects 

Deleted as posted on the wrong thread when my WiFi had a nap!
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Offline sugarfizzle

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Re: A question for the scientific Rootschatters
« Reply #8 on: Monday 22 June 20 11:23 BST (UK) »
We used to wash fresh foods before putting them in the fridge, empty out prepacked fresh items. Frozen food either removed from it's container and repackaged, or washed with soapy water. Eggs transferred to a different egg box. Cupboard goods isolated on a designated quarantine shelf.

Adds a good half hour if not longer to unpacking.

This week we ventured into Aldi for shopping, didn't buy very much. Instead of washing the fresh food or decanting it, we put it in a clean carrier bag in the bottom drawer of the fridge.  Anything needed immediately we took appropriate precautions with, the rest left untouched for 3 days.

Home delivery expected today, might try the same again.
Time taken considerably reduced.

Regards Margaret
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