Author Topic: A question for the scientific Rootschatters  (Read 2509 times)

Offline groom

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Re: A question for the scientific Rootschatters
« Reply #9 on: Monday 22 June 20 11:35 BST (UK) »
I haven't taken any extra precautions after a grocery delivery, apart from washing my hands after putting it all away and washing fruit as I do normally anyway. I haven't read about anyone who has been shielding or self isolating and who has contracted the virus without coming into contact with another person. If this had happened I'm sure it would have made the news. I think the chances of contracting it this way are very slim and if it was being passed on in this way, we would have had outbreaks that could be traced back to a particular store or delivery.
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Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: A question for the scientific Rootschatters
« Reply #10 on: Monday 22 June 20 11:52 BST (UK) »
Nobody has answered you so far. It's probably because we all feel ill-qualified to answer. I'm ill-qualified too. As an engineer though I like to kid myself and think of myself at times as a practical scientist!

A virus is not a living organism, and it doesn't multiply and grow on 'things'. A virus loses its potency or viability the longer it is outside the wonderful environment of the human (or whatever living host it likes).

So it likes moisture. If it's warm then it will have less moisture and deteriorate quicker. Labs store viruses in freezers. Hopefully, not next to their ice creams.

Sense at last. I would however note that not only do labs store viruses in “freezers” the storage temperature is as low as −70°C or lower but the samples have been pre-processed first

You can't see a virus even with the best optical microscope in the world. It's miniscule. It can only be viewed  indirectly by a scanning electron microscope.

So let's think for a minute it you can transfer a virus from one surface to the next by objects touching each other.

We could imagine that if we had two hard plastics next to each other, entirely flat, then the surface finish could be excellent and uniform and there could be opportunity there for a miniscule thing to transfer across.


Agreed but two flat objects are seldom flat but often slightly convex or concave leaving areas which do not touch, so it is likely that even on a flat surface transfer might not occur

When you then start looking at other material, like soft plastics with creases the the contact area at any one time is much reduced. Also if you think of how miniscule a virus is, it only has to be on an item that has even the slightest amount of texture (even texture invisible to the human eye) for it to be almost completely lost in this texture.


This is in reality the opposite effect of two flat objects above because the soft plastic such as a bag is flexible it often takes the shape of the object it is placed on meaning that in many cases a transfer could happen

It's a bit like if we lowered you gently into a rainforest. If we imagine you are the virus, and the rainforest is the texture of the material. If we then got a massive piece of cloth and lowered it on the roof of the rainforest and then removed it to see if you were then stuck on it, then we'd be unlikely to find you on that cloth.

The other thing worth bearing in mind is that it is believed that the severity of Covid-19 in individuals is related to the 'viral load' they get. So if you get a great big dose of it off something or somebody then it could hit you hard. If you get a tiny viral load then your body is much more likely to be able to fend it off.

So if we think of some shopping. There could be a proper good dose of a virus if somebody has coughed or sneezed into your bag or salivated all over your  huge bar of chocolate that you've treated yourself to. That's not very likely to have happened though. Yes there could be a transfer of the virus onto the shopping, and that's why it's a good idea to think it through and quarantine items if possible.


Agreed, in addition if someone has coughed or sneezed into their hand then handled un-bagged fruit & vegetables it is possible for them to transfer  virus onto that product, which is why I tend to avoid fruit and veg that might be eaten without cooking

It's a bit of a balance though I find. We have "click and collect". We normally get our email that it's been prepared and picked early in the morning, around 7am. We then collect it in the afternoon. So in that time items in the bags have already had some seven hours quarantine before we go to Asda to collect. I pack the car myself, and when we get home we bring the shopping into the hallway. I put perishables straight in the fridge or freezer. I accept the risk there could be a virus on them. I then wash my hands again, and then take out all the non-perishables out of their bags and space them apart in the hallway. This should dry out any virus. I then wash my hands again. We don't touch the items in the hallway until the following day.

Those are my thoughts on it. There is probably a better way of doing it, but it is a balance of risk. The fact that we do "click and collect" has probably reduced our risk massively before any other considerations.

I'll throw this thought-grenade in as a closing remark:
Perhaps getting a little tiny dose of the virus wouldn't be so bad after all?

Trystan

The problem with your closing remark is that is unknown. In the normal course of events having an infection often protects from a second infection and if a second infection does occur it tends to be milder than the first.
As Covid-19 is a new virus that has not been proved to occur, the general opinion is it will hold true but there is also a fear that a second infection after a mild infection could be more damaging than never having an infection in the first place, but again this is only a small possibility.

Cheers
Guy
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Offline Nick_Ips

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Re: A question for the scientific Rootschatters
« Reply #11 on: Monday 22 June 20 11:57 BST (UK) »
The news about cold environments is certainly interesting, perhaps I should leave my tinned goods out in the sunshine when the weather is nice rather than putting them in the cooler garage.

I wouldn't leave tins out in sunshine.

Although it might help dry them out quicker, the safe storage of food in tins depends on them remaining 100% sealed.

Because you can't control how hot the tin might get in the sunshine there is a risk of the contents heating up and expanding to the point where the pressure 'bursts' the seal.

This won't necessarily be an explosive (and messy ;D ) burst - it could be invisible, but enough to compromise the safety of the food within.

A cool - but well ventilated - garage shouldn't be a problem. Remember that clothes will dry on a line outside when it is quite cold, so long as there is enough ventilation (wind).

If the ventilation is poor and you sometimes get condensation then it is the wrong environment to store tins in any circumstances - as you risk them going rusty and the contents becoming unsafe.

The whole purpose of tinning is to keep food fresh and safe for a long period of time (if the tin is kept in the right conditions) which is far longer than anyone suggests Coronavirus can survive for at normal ambient temperatures.

So if you are concerned then use that long period of time to minimise the risk from something on the outside of the tin, rather than rush the process (e.g. by putting the tins in hot sunshine) and risk compromising the safety of what is inside the tin.

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Offline sugarfizzle

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Re: A question for the scientific Rootschatters
« Reply #13 on: Monday 22 June 20 13:31 BST (UK) »
I haven't taken any extra precautions after a grocery delivery, apart from washing my hands after putting it all away and washing fruit as I do normally anyway. I haven't read about anyone who has been shielding or self isolating and who has contracted the virus without coming into contact with another person. If this had happened I'm sure it would have made the news. I think the chances of contracting it this way are very slim and if it was being passed on in this way, we would have had outbreaks that could be traced back to a particular store or delivery.

Probably correct, though not everyone knows where they picked it up.
It is still a relatively new virus, not everything is known about it's capabilities.
But washing/quarantining shopping and mail costs nothing but time.

I'll carry on for the time being, but perfectly understand that not everyone will want to do so.

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Offline Mowsehowse

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Re: A question for the scientific Rootschatters
« Reply #14 on: Monday 22 June 20 13:40 BST (UK) »
Sugarfizzle - I believe the virus lasts better in a cold environment, so quarantining things for a while in garage or hallway is likely to be more effective than putting them in the bottom of the fridge.

Also: I have a friend who, with husband and 2 disabled sons, has been isolating (to shield,) since lockdown.

For 8 weeks she has been suffering Covid symptoms.  Other 3 members of household not displaying any signs of illness.  Friend is perplexed how she has caught this, especially when other family have not. 
I am presuming it was either due to contagion on packaging of something delivered, or her family have also had mild illness without obvious symptoms.
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Offline groom

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Re: A question for the scientific Rootschatters
« Reply #15 on: Monday 22 June 20 13:45 BST (UK) »
Quote
For 8 weeks she has been suffering Covid symptoms.  Other 3 members of household not displaying any signs of illness.

It may not be Covid 19, I know of someone who had what appeared to be symptoms, was taken into hospital, tested negative twice and diagnosed as pneumonia.
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Offline Mowsehowse

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Re: A question for the scientific Rootschatters
« Reply #16 on: Monday 22 June 20 16:45 BST (UK) »
Quote
For 8 weeks she has been suffering Covid symptoms.  Other 3 members of household not displaying any signs of illness.

It may not be Covid 19, I know of someone who had what appeared to be symptoms, was taken into hospital, tested negative twice and diagnosed as pneumonia.

Yes, perfectly possible.  I gather one of the difficulties with Covid 19 is that it presents in so many different ways.
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Offline Roobarb

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Re: A question for the scientific Rootschatters
« Reply #17 on: Monday 22 June 20 17:09 BST (UK) »
The news about cold environments is certainly interesting, perhaps I should leave my tinned goods out in the sunshine when the weather is nice rather than putting them in the cooler garage.

I wouldn't leave tins out in sunshine.

Although it might help dry them out quicker, the safe storage of food in tins depends on them remaining 100% sealed.

Because you can't control how hot the tin might get in the sunshine there is a risk of the contents heating up and expanding to the point where the pressure 'bursts' the seal.

This won't necessarily be an explosive (and messy ;D ) burst - it could be invisible, but enough to compromise the safety of the food within.

A cool - but well ventilated - garage shouldn't be a problem. Remember that clothes will dry on a line outside when it is quite cold, so long as there is enough ventilation (wind).

If the ventilation is poor and you sometimes get condensation then it is the wrong environment to store tins in any circumstances - as you risk them going rusty and the contents becoming unsafe.

The whole purpose of tinning is to keep food fresh and safe for a long period of time (if the tin is kept in the right conditions) which is far longer than anyone suggests Coronavirus can survive for at normal ambient temperatures.

So if you are concerned then use that long period of time to minimise the risk from something on the outside of the tin, rather than rush the process (e.g. by putting the tins in hot sunshine) and risk compromising the safety of what is inside the tin.

Nick_Ips, my comment was partly tongue in cheek, I did think perhaps I would leave the tins out briefly on their way to the garage. I certainly wouldn't want them exploding! What a picture that conjures up.  ;D There's no damp in my garage so I'll continue with leaving them there for a while on their journey to my kitchen cupboards.

Apart from a friend bringing me some perishables, my main grocery shop is currently by supermarket delivery. I'm assuming that the goods that the packers are handling are direct from the boxes sent from the factories, which in turn would have been packed by machine. That does cut down the number of people who have handled the goods. I'm more concerned about such things as bread from the supermarket, people do have a bad habit of squeezing loaves or picking them up and then deciding on a different one. (I only buy packaged bread).
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